ANPR at the pump.....
Discussion
Won't say who I work for, but just read this in relation to combatting "drive offs" :-
"Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) systems have been installed on a number of stores. ANPR picks up every car's number-plate as they pull up at a pump, and this is compared against a database managed by the Police. The system then alerts the Sales Assistant to decline pump authorisation on specific car registrations".
Good thing or bad thing? On the one hand it should stop pond life filling up their (well, probably not theirs) cars, but on the other hand it could be used to track movements of normal motorists. There's also the prospect that once Chavboy realises he can't put fuel in a "hot" car, he'll just go and nick it from existing vehicle tanks.
"Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) systems have been installed on a number of stores. ANPR picks up every car's number-plate as they pull up at a pump, and this is compared against a database managed by the Police. The system then alerts the Sales Assistant to decline pump authorisation on specific car registrations".
Good thing or bad thing? On the one hand it should stop pond life filling up their (well, probably not theirs) cars, but on the other hand it could be used to track movements of normal motorists. There's also the prospect that once Chavboy realises he can't put fuel in a "hot" car, he'll just go and nick it from existing vehicle tanks.
The police waste hours and hours everyday taking statements and reports of drive offs at garages. The taxpayer is paying for all this through police wages. The garages could put a stop to the trend by making people pay before the petrol is dispensed. However, the garage would lose out as people would always buy less than is needed..
Street
Street
Streetcop said:
The police waste hours and hours everyday taking statements and reports of drive offs at garages. The taxpayer is paying for all this through police wages. The garages could put a stop to the trend by making people pay before the petrol is dispensed. However, the garage would lose out as people would always buy less than is needed..
Street
How can you buy less fuel than is needed?
The reason garages don't adopt a prepayment operation is to do with customer trust - at least that's the marketing spin from within the oil company I work for. The logic is that prepayment sends out the message that we don't trust our customers, which makes them feel annoyed and subsequently go elsewhere for their fuel. Valid point I think. Giving your honest customers the impression you don't trust them isn't really good for business.
As for the "frees up police time" idea....great idea in theory, but then speed cameras were supposed to do that too, and we all know what happened there don't we.
I'm on the fence here. On the one hand, anything that stops garages losing money should ultimately benefit the customer. On the other, it's yet another piece of Big Brother kit being implemented on a "if you've got nothing to hide..." basis. Then there's the state of the DVLA database to consider. What happens if you've just bought a new car and you need to fill it up? Database thinks the car is off the road or something and you're flagged up as a suspect vehicle!
Personally, I think something like a prepaid fuel card might be an idea (akin to pay as you go mobiles). You buy a prepaid card from the garage then fill up until you're out of credit. I appreciate that most garages already have fuel cards, but most of those are billed to an individual or even linked to bank accounts, which has just as many civil liberty implications as ANPR if you ask me, which is why I refuse to use them.
hornet said:
How can you buy less fuel than is needed?
Here's how it works...
Customer goes into petrol station. Must pay for petrol before it's dispensed. Doesn't know how much he will need...Doesn't want to hand over £30 to the cashier and then only fill up with £25 worth of fuel before the tank is full. SO..the customer goes into the station. Hands over £20 and fills up with £20 worth of fuel. Result: garage missed out on selling £5.
The above is the main worry of petrol stations managers at a recent industry/police meeting I attended.
hornet said:
As for the "frees up police time" idea....great idea in theory, but then speed cameras were supposed to do that too, and we all know what happened there don't we.
I've spent hours taking statements from harassed cashiers in petrol stations following drive offs. The car might have been on false plates etc, so it's just a paper excercise, but must be completed. We now hand out several 'drive off packs' to the garages, where the cashier fills in the details after a theft and then the police call later to pick up the paperwork. That seems to be working at the moment.
It's true, speed cameras DO free up police officers. The traffic dept of my force has nearly halved in numbers and some forces there isn't a traffic dept, as you all know. The traffic bobbies that left in my force are now on street crime squads and firearms teams..on the whole. However, the old story about dedicated traffic officers dealing with dangerous driving etc etc suffers as a consequence. I'm all for increasing the trafpol numbers back to the original totals.
What is coming in most forces is a Trafpol ANPR squad. The government is throwing loads of cash into it and each force will be MADE to operate such a squad whether the chief constable likes it or not. There's even talk of building some new custody suites to handle the increase in prisoners numbers from the ANPR squad, such in the confidence in the equipment.
Street
Streetcop - sorry, I meant to say that speed cameras have reduced traffic police numbers, not police generally. The worry is that even with dedicated ANPR squads, the benefit of police intuition is lost unless a car is flagged as suspect. We could have ANPR all over the place, but it won't stop a drunk driver so long as he is the RK of the car he is driving. That's the major concern.
I'd agree that anything that can reduce drive offs and/or "no means" incidents is a good thing, but I don't think throwing yet more technology at it is the answer. We risk alienating Joe Public for the sake of a few scrotes doing a runner. What next, prepayment in supermarkets to prevent shoplifting? Strikes me as using a sledgehammer to crack a small nut, but there you go.
I'd agree that anything that can reduce drive offs and/or "no means" incidents is a good thing, but I don't think throwing yet more technology at it is the answer. We risk alienating Joe Public for the sake of a few scrotes doing a runner. What next, prepayment in supermarkets to prevent shoplifting? Strikes me as using a sledgehammer to crack a small nut, but there you go.
Streetcop said:
How can you buy less fuel than is needed?
Here's how it works...
Customer goes into petrol station. Must pay for petrol before it's dispensed. Doesn't know how much he will need...Doesn't want to hand over £30 to the cashier and then only fill up with £25 worth of fuel before the tank is full. SO..the customer goes into the station. Hands over £20 and fills up with £20 worth of fuel. Result: garage missed out on selling £5.
The above is the main worry of petrol stations managers at a recent industry/police meeting I attended.
hornet said:
As for the "frees up police time" idea....great idea in theory, but then speed cameras were supposed to do that too, and we all know what happened there don't we.
I've spent hours taking statements from harassed cashiers in petrol stations following drive offs. The car might have been on false plates etc, so it's just a paper excercise, but must be completed. We now hand out several 'drive off packs' to the garages, where the cashier fills in the details after a theft and then the police call later to pick up the paperwork. That seems to be working at the moment.
It's true, speed cameras DO free up police officers. The traffic dept of my force has nearly halved in numbers and some forces there isn't a traffic dept, as you all know. The traffic bobbies that left in my force are now on street crime squads and firearms teams..on the whole. However, the old story about dedicated traffic officers dealing with dangerous driving etc etc suffers as a consequence. I'm all for increasing the trafpol numbers back to the original totals.
What is coming in most forces is a Trafpol ANPR squad. The government is throwing loads of cash into it and each force will be MADE to operate such a squad whether the chief constable likes it or not. There's even talk of building some new custody suites to handle the increase in prisoners numbers from the ANPR squad, such in the confidence in the equipment.
Street
Sorry to be cynical, but you know why ANPR is popular, there's money to be made! If their wasn't, "they" wouldn't want it!
hornet said:
Streetcop - sorry, I meant to say that speed cameras have reduced traffic police numbers, not police generally. The worry is that even with dedicated ANPR squads, the benefit of police intuition is lost unless a car is flagged as suspect. We could have ANPR all over the place, but it won't stop a drunk driver so long as he is the RK of the car he is driving. That's the major concern.
I'd agree that anything that can reduce drive offs and/or "no means" incidents is a good thing, but I don't think throwing yet more technology at it is the answer. We risk alienating Joe Public for the sake of a few scrotes doing a runner. What next, prepayment in supermarkets to prevent shoplifting? Strikes me as using a sledgehammer to crack a small nut, but there you go.
Police intuition is still there..but ANPR is superb...
Without giving myself too much credit..
, my police 6th sense is shit hot and works 8/10 times. I often laugh to myself following an 'innocent' vehicle stop when the driver coughs to 'No insurance' or if I find out he's 'wanted on warrant'...often the phrase "I don't know how I do it for the wages..." echoes around the patrol car..
... However, even with my spidersense, ANPR is far superior. The success rate at every roadside checkpoint that I've worked on, is well over 80%. I'm not sure of the revenue gaining comments of ANPR are about, but the numbers of uninsured cars that we lift off the road, disq drivers we arrest and teams of burglars/thieves we stop is phenominal!
Let me tell you....Mr and Mrs Tax payer...your money is being well spend on ANPR..(in the fight against the criminal use of motor vehicles)
Street
Dont agree with it being used anywhere other than the way its currently being used.
If anpr is used at pertol stations, next itll be your local shops, then itll be everywhere, peeking out at you from behind the cheese counter.
More big brother bullshit.
Answer is to remove your plates. Cant read it cant do anything.
If anpr is used at pertol stations, next itll be your local shops, then itll be everywhere, peeking out at you from behind the cheese counter.
More big brother bullshit.
Answer is to remove your plates. Cant read it cant do anything.
Maybe I am a bit cynical when it comes to new tech but one wonders how often the system will block a vehicle in error. If you are out of gas it will be damned annoying having to wait for a couple of weeks for the system to get updated and you can fill up or having to trek to the petrol station with jerry cans each morning so that you can go to work. Obviously villain catching is important but there needs to be a balance. Usings Streecops figure of 80% success for ANPR stops that implies that one in five are errors?
rustybin said:
Usings Streecops figure of 80% success for ANPR stops that implies that one in five are errors?
No..that's not the case...
the one in five might be as follows:
Example One:
A vehicle's registration makes a 'hit' because the registered keeper is disqualified on PNC. The vehicle is stopped and we find the keeper's partner is the driver. No offence.
Example Two:
A different vehicles registration makes a 'hit' because the vehicle has been involved in crime. We stop the vehicle and find that the driver has recently purchased the vehicle from auctions and wasn't the keeper at the time of the offences.
Street
Streetcop said:
Example One:
A vehicle's registration makes a 'hit' because the registered keeper is disqualified on PNC. The vehicle is stopped and we find the keeper's partner is the driver. No offence.
Example Two:
A different vehicles registration makes a 'hit' because the vehicle has been involved in crime. We stop the vehicle and find that the driver has recently purchased the vehicle from auctions and wasn't the keeper at the time of the offences.
Street
But are either of those good reasons for not selling someone petrol?
Streetcop said:
Usings Streecops figure of 80% success for ANPR stops that implies that one in five are errors?
No..that's not the case...
the one in five might be as follows:
Example One:
A vehicle's registration makes a 'hit' because the registered keeper is disqualified on PNC. The vehicle is stopped and we find the keeper's partner is the driver. No offence.
Example Two:
A different vehicles registration makes a 'hit' because the vehicle has been involved in crime. We stop the vehicle and find that the driver has recently purchased the vehicle from auctions and wasn't the keeper at the time of the offences.
Street
Okay, but how do those two cases map to the petrol forecourt situation? You're still left with a car stuck with no petrol until someone with more authority than the garage worker can dig a bit deeper into the 'hit'...
Streetcop said:
I'm presuming that the ANPR in petrol stations will only 'hit' on unregistered cars or stolen ones...
That makes more sense but the number of things one reads on this site about DVLA errors etc. and the length of time it takes to sort them, it still leaves a level of concern.
I'm not in favour of anything "big brother" and what makes me really angry is people who say "...if you nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about..."
Surveillance of the innocent cizizen is just creeping up on us, ever increasing bit by bit.
Surely, if someone wanted to drive off from the forecourt without paying or to hide themselves in any way, they would put on a set of plates they already knew belonged to a similar car. It's pathetically easy; OK, you'll catch some thickos, but so what. They real criminals will get away easily and Mr and Ms Honest will be monitored more and more.
Surveillance of the innocent cizizen is just creeping up on us, ever increasing bit by bit.
Surely, if someone wanted to drive off from the forecourt without paying or to hide themselves in any way, they would put on a set of plates they already knew belonged to a similar car. It's pathetically easy; OK, you'll catch some thickos, but so what. They real criminals will get away easily and Mr and Ms Honest will be monitored more and more.
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