Who's at fault? Traffic collision - with video

[Chris993C4]

Johnboy Mac said:

Handy, those in car cameras. Never seen a good driver with one yet.

Degner said:

Sadly, I completely agree.

Good drivers don't post their footage online because, on the whole, it is frightfully boring and uneventful.

[wolf1]

SupremeUK said:

1. I was in the correct lane to take the first exit - as per the painted arrows on the road surface you can see in the video and google maps:

Sorry OP but you were not in the correct lane at all. You were at fault, time to suck it up and move on.

[Milky Joe]

Chris993C4 said:

Johnboy Mac said:

Handy, those in car cameras. Never seen a good driver with one yet.

Degner said:

Sadly, I completely agree.

Good drivers don't post their footage online because, on the whole, it is frightfully boring and uneventful.

Agree with all of that.

[dmitsi]

OP, you were in the wrong. Also if I worked for your insurance company and you sent that video in, I'd be increasing your premium to lose your business. You were impatient and discourteous with the learner driver. You can't work roundabouts and on top of that you think it was all ok.

I assume this is a wind up because I can't think how anyone would not understand the blame in that collision.

[jazzyjeff]

superlightr said:

alock said:

I think the OP was in the wrong to overtake a learner in this position, but there is a roundabout in Basingstoke where a white arrow on the road for straight-ahead implies take the major exit, instead of the straight ahead exit.

You can see it here:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=51.2835...

The roundabout has 3 exits at the common 9, 12 and 3 o'clock positions.
The straight-ahead white arrows on the road have a matching green road sign that adds additional information. Straight-ahead is defined as the A33 which is the 3 o'clock exit. There are therefore 2 left-turn exits at the 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock positions.

I witness a near miss at this roundabout at least every couple of weeks.

pretty crap road markings again. as you said the 'straight ahead' exit is at 3 o'cock.

This.

If you follow the markings 'straight on' has to be the first exit (otherwise no-one is being directed towards the first exit). The markings were probably drawn before the Tesco's was built, and should have been re-drawn when it was done.

Incidentally, there's nothing wrong with 'Banging on about road markings'. Without road markings there would be a free-for-all and probably as many accidents as there are without. Unfortunately there are too many clueless drivers about that need constant nannying - and that doesn't exclude driving instructors

OP was daft not to give space to a learner, yet the (clearly crap) instructor should have noticed what was happening and applied the brakes if necessary instead of allowing his charge to accelerate into the back of the OP's car therefore nicely supplementing his income with a handy whiplash claim

[RB Will]

Are all roundabout exits equal?
Sounds silly but I know some nav systems don't include things like superstores, hotels or services as exits from roundabouts.
I have got myself mildly lost before (being a tard) when I was following directions I had printed off. They told me to take the 2nd exit which I did going straight on, the 9 o'clock exit was services. What the directions wanted was for me to take the 3o'clock exit, being the 2nd proper road exit.

Was just wondering if this may explain the dodgy road marking here so the 2 straight ahead arrows would be for taking the main road to the left meaning OP was in the right. With the right hand lane being for Tesco and the 3 o'clock exit.

Looking at the big white sign before the roundabout you see that the 3 and 9 exits have big fat arms coming off the roundabout where the 12 exit for Tesco is a thin arm. Maybe the arrows on the road just relate to the highlighted wider arms. This seems more logical to me as I can't see why Tesco would need 2 dedicated lanes when it only has the one into the car park.

This would leave the learner fully in the wrong.
So the jury is out on this one until somebody can confirm what the lane marking actually mean but going on my interpretation I would be leaning towards siding with the OP. Although to join in with the OP bashing, I would have given the learner a wide berth seeing it approach and enter a roundabout with no indicators.

[streaky]

superlightr said:

covboy said:

In the dim and distant past on here, I'm sure it has been argued that arrows on the road have no legal meaning -purely advisory (therefore no must or must not about it). Anyone remember the outcome?

Still doesn't excuse the OP driving standards though

no they are a requirment to follow. Linky to where I collided when a driver in lane 1 did not follow the road arrows and went ahead and when we were in lane 2 went left (as the op did) and we won 100%


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Fontwell+Park+Race...

I suggest you read Schedule 6 Traffic Signs and General Regulations 2092, page 186, Diagram 1035 Appropriate traffic lanes for different directions. The arrows carry no enforcement. The compulsion comes only from the accompanying words: "Turn left", "Ahead only, "Turn right". If absent, then the arrows are advisory only.

We covered this in the thread "Roundabout question" on 14-17 May 2011.

Streaky

[Johnnytheboy]

RB Will said:

Are all roundabout exits equal?

That's a fair point: I can think of one or two roundabouts where the first exit enters a business premises etc. so people universally indicate left before entering the roundabout to take the 2nd turning.

[Red Devil]

superlightr said:

The road arrows are strange. Both point ahead !? with lane 2 ahead and right.

As lane 1 and 2 both point ahead - neither give either lane an option to turn left thus it could be argued that the road markings are incorrect and thus the arrows must infact allow the 1st exit - which then follows that as both lane 1 & 2 have the same arrows both lanes allow (not only allow but require) the 1st exit and you must be allowed to use both lanes.

If the L driver was not taking the fist exit then they should be in lane 2 and follown the ahead and right arrow. ie right

Following on from my previous post I have had another look at the Google maps link, this time looking at the overhead view rather than the in-car one. I think you are correct as it suggests that the two 'straight on' arrows do indeed relate to the westbound arm of the A323 (in plan view it is near enough a direct exit from Oberursel Way). For Tesco and the other A323 exit you are supposed to be in the right hand lane. However, for an inexperienced motorist or one unfamiliar with the junction the markings are ambiguous. I would also be questioning what, if anything, the learner was told by the instructor on the approach to that roundabout as the latter should know his/her patch inside and out. I think the OP's insurers have caved far too readily and the proper result should be the laibility being split (as per Grace v Turner).

superlightr said:

I had a similar collision on a roundabout in Sussex A27 lane 1 and 2 were Left arrows and lane 3 ahead and right only. I was in lane 2 going left on the A27. A car in lane 1 didnt turn left and when ahead and collided with me. Other ins co paid out in full as other driver totally at fault. We used google to prove the road layout.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Fontwell+Park+Race...

Your situation differs from the OP as the lane markings in your case are far less open to intepretation

superlightr said:

You didnt say if the L driver was taking the 1st exit or going straight over? I presume they went straight and thus could be argued they are in breach of the road arrow for their lane.

As far as I can tell from the video, the learner gave no indication either way on the approach to the roundabout (unlike at the immediately preceding one), so it is impossible to say what their intention was.

superlightr said:

I think it was not sensible not hanging back a few more seconds untill you both had moved away from the RaB and clearer lanes.

+1 - always wait to see what learners do in potential conflict situations.

[RB Will]

Also having just looked if you soom out on the map to an overhead view you can easily see how the first exit off this roundabout could be interpreted as straight on from the previous road.

I am now deciding to go with the OP on this one and the learner being wrong for crossing lanes with no indication/ being in the wrong lane to go to Tesco.

[GBDG]

jazzyjeff said:

OP was daft not to give space to a learner, yet the (clearly crap) instructor should have noticed what was happening and applied the brakes if necessary instead of allowing his charge to accelerate into the back of the OP's car therefore nicely supplementing his income with a handy whiplash claim

The learner car looks to be a Corsa VXR, no way that is a driving instructor. Most likely a friend/parent of the learner, so unlikely to have duel controls or extra mirrors.

The learner looked like someone near test ready, they weren't driving badly at all. You would assume that if you have L plates people wouldn't try and overtake you on a roundabout, from the wrong lane. If I was in the position of the Corsa, I couldn't say with certainty that I would be able to prevent an accident - the OP is coming from a blind spot, and accelerating.

[jazzyjeff]

streaky said:

superlightr said:

covboy said:

In the dim and distant past on here, I'm sure it has been argued that arrows on the road have no legal meaning -purely advisory (therefore no must or must not about it). Anyone remember the outcome?

Still doesn't excuse the OP driving standards though

no they are a requirment to follow. Linky to where I collided when a driver in lane 1 did not follow the road arrows and went ahead and when we were in lane 2 went left (as the op did) and we won 100%


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Fontwell+Park+Race...

I suggest you read Schedule 6 Traffic Signs and General Regulations 2092, page 186, Diagram 1035 Appropriate traffic lanes for different directions. The arrows carry no enforcement. The compulsion comes only from the accompanying words: "Turn left", "Ahead only, "Turn right". If absent, then the arrows are advisory only.

We covered this in the thread "Roundabout question" on 14-17 May 2011.

Streaky

Streaky, that's not in dispute. It doesn't however explain how the hell anyone is supposed to take the first exit if they are to assume (incorrectly, in my view) that the ahead arrows mean 'go straight on into Tesco's'. Tesco's may be taking over the world slowly but they haven't yet bought out the highways department!

[Hugo a Gogo]

RB Will said:

Also having just looked if you soom out on the map to an overhead view you can easily see how the first exit off this roundabout could be interpreted as straight on from the previous road.

I am now deciding to go with the OP on this one and the learner being wrong for crossing lanes with no indication/ being in the wrong lane to go to Tesco.

what about the signs?


clearly showing main road is left, superstore is straight on

[DanL]

Looking at the video and the road from Google maps you might expect that the learner would go left, but that they might head straight on.

However, what you wouldn't ever expect is for someone in the right hand lane to turn left there.

If you and the learner had both been going straight over you wouldn't have had an issue. If you'd pulled behind the learner and gone left you also wouldn't have had an issue, and you'd have been able to nip past them on the dual carriageway if you felt they were holding you up.

Unfortunately you made an assumption about where the learner was going, cut them up, and they hit you. It's all down to you I'm afraid...

[Great Pretender]

jodypress said:

Sorry Op but looks like you were 100% at fault here. You in a lane that is clearly marked straight on or turn right. The Learner is in a lane marked straight on. He is not indicating left.

You speed up to nip round to the left to overtake him. He carries on correctly and hits you as you turned across his path.

Absolutely this. The OP is at fault for assuming the Learner is turning left, despite not indicating to do so. It's fairly obvious to me that the right hand lane is either for the second or third exit of the roundabout; the left is either for taking the first or second exit. You could argue that there should be a 'left or straight on' arrow painted on the road instead, but you'd have to be a complete moron not to understand the road layout despite this.

OP, I'm not sure why you were filming this, but if you are in the habit of recording your driving to monitor other people's driving standards, I suggest you stop now.

[Distant]

3 Things - Don't put yourself in a position where you are alongside anyone on the exit of a RAB. Secondly, give learners room and time, what the hell do you think the L-plates are there for? Thirdly, that RAB would be better off having no arrows on approach thatn those misleading ones.

[bicycleshorts]

Those road markings are very odd. At a guess, the supermarket lane was put in after the roundabout, and presumably the decision on what markings to use?

In any case, there's no left arrow, so it could be assumed that straight on is the first exit. Using this assumption the learner was wrong.

OP should have given more time/space for the learner, and someone should change the road markings...

[saaby93]

Hugo a Gogo said:

clearly showing main road is left, superstore is straight on

Hence why there's no left arrow option
The roadsign with the roundabout shows different with the main road A323 going across left right.

Edited by saaby93 on Monday 12th March 13:37

[0000]

[oldsoak]

Forget the bloody arrows...As Streaky has already pointed out they are advisory at best without also having written wordage to supplement their meaning. All you need do in these situations is apply some basic road positioning skills to alert other users as to your intentions.
The learner did exactly that...The OP on the other hand, shows us his road positioning skills are sadly inferior to those of the learner driver.
The link I posted earlier (section 3 I believe) should make this clearer than I can articulate.
The learner who wasn't indicating was positioned to the nearside on approach to the RA...this indicates his intention to do one thing ...go straight ahead (straight ahead in this case would be taking the Wingate Court exit not the A323 Wellington Ave one)
The OP who wanted to be down the A323 turning was totally in the wrong lane and suffering from 'L driver-itis' (also known as impatience) woefully misjudged his ability and cut the learner up resulting in the collision.
The worst thing about this whole scenario is that the OP believes himself to be blameless...yeah right this has got to be a wind up...no-one is that dumb surely?