Carrying a swiss army knife in the car
Discussion
SlimJim16v said:
beanbag said:
The only concern having now read that you are only legally allowed to carry a 3 inch blade is the rescue tool blade is 4-3/8 inches long. However, having said that, it's clearly a tool designed for a specific purpose plus with a lifetime guarantee, what's to go wrong?
And at a tad over £50, it's a no brainer to keep it in the car.
As it is not a folding pocket knife, with a blade of 3" or less, good reason is required. Having it "just in case" is not good enough. And at a tad over £50, it's a no brainer to keep it in the car.
How on earth can this law confuse people? If it's over 3" or fixed/locking - have a good reason.
Can I keep a 4" locking blade in my pocket at the pub - no
Can I have an 8" meat clever in my kitchen to do the dinner - yes
When I am fishing I have a leatherman locking flick (thumb) knife on my belt.....when I stop at the garage on the way home - i dont!
Can I keep a 4" locking blade in my pocket at the pub - no
Can I have an 8" meat clever in my kitchen to do the dinner - yes
When I am fishing I have a leatherman locking flick (thumb) knife on my belt.....when I stop at the garage on the way home - i dont!
Tiggsy said:
How on earth can this law confuse people? If it's over 3" or fixed/locking - have a good reason.
Can I keep a 4" locking blade in my pocket at the pub - no
Can I have an 8" meat clever in my kitchen to do the dinner - yes
When I am fishing I have a leatherman locking flick (thumb) knife on my belt.....when I stop at the garage on the way home - i dont!
Steady on, you know the voice of reason and logic never goes down well here!Can I keep a 4" locking blade in my pocket at the pub - no
Can I have an 8" meat clever in my kitchen to do the dinner - yes
When I am fishing I have a leatherman locking flick (thumb) knife on my belt.....when I stop at the garage on the way home - i dont!
mat777 said:
What with all the hysteria of knife crime, and stories of over-reacting officers exercising tasers instead of common sense, I thought I'd best ask before I add a swiss army multi-knife to my in-car toolkit.
Its about 4" long and although the blade doesnt lock with a catch, it is more than stiff enough to stay in position by itself.
So, is it legal to carry in the car?
Is it legal? No.Its about 4" long and although the blade doesnt lock with a catch, it is more than stiff enough to stay in position by itself.
So, is it legal to carry in the car?
Are you REALLY likely to get in trouble over it? No.
SlimJim16v said:
Dibble said:
What's the misinformation?
The law wrt bladed/pointed articles clearly outlines that you need a reason (work, religion, costume) to have a bladed article with you, you can't have it "just in case". Notwithstanding that, I'd like to think that most officers would be fairly pragmatic about the reasons someone had such an item with them, and where it might be in the car.
And yes, for the avoidance of doubt, I am BiB.
The law states that you need a good reason, OTHER than for a folding pocket knife and the blade must be non-locking and under 3". Read the LAW I quoted, S139. The part about a locking knife becoming a fixed blade isn't actually law, but is now the case due to a legal precedent being set in someone v someone.The law wrt bladed/pointed articles clearly outlines that you need a reason (work, religion, costume) to have a bladed article with you, you can't have it "just in case". Notwithstanding that, I'd like to think that most officers would be fairly pragmatic about the reasons someone had such an item with them, and where it might be in the car.
And yes, for the avoidance of doubt, I am BiB.
What chance does a law abiding citizen when the old bill don't even know the law.
Have a look at R v Giles 2003 [2003] All ER (D) 68 Feb [2003] EWCA Crim 1287
"it was held that a person must have a specific good reason for having the item in his possession. It is not enough, where the item has a blade satisfying s139, that he might think of using part of it, say the corkscrew. Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place
The appellant's case was that this was a Swiss Army knife which he had been using to renovate his guitar earlier in the evening. He put it in its pouch on his belt where apparently it ordinarily lived. He was wearing his shirt outside his trousers so it was not visible. It was a multi purpose utility tool, with five different tools attached to it. He did not realise it was illegal to carry and he had not intended to use it.
His case is and was that he had raised sufficient evidence of a good reason for the matter to be left to the jury. His good reason was this: it was a utility tool with a multitude of different uses in any number of different situations. He did not have to provide a specific good reason on that occasion for possession of a blade that came attached to other implements that could all be used in legitimate situations.
There was expert evidence that the blade was eight centimetres long. That is of significance in that it was more than three inches and it had a pointed tip.
Held: In our judgment, the fact that an article prohibited under section 139 may be part of something that has other features that are not prohibited, does not stop it from being a prohibited article. Indeed, that is not something that has not been disputed in this appeal. But nor, in our judgment, does it raise a blanket defence of good reason for having it in a public place, just because the possessor could, if he felt minded to do so, use the tin opener, the bottle opener or the screwdriver or any other aspect of the implement. If he simply had the article in his possession, without any particular need or intention to use it for a lawful purpose that is insufficient to found a good reason.…..we think the defendant does have to prove a specific reason for having the article with him in a public place on the occasion alleged."
Pothole said:
Pontoneer said:
I've got a 'Swiss Champ' in my pocket right now , and I seldom go anywhere without it .
That's potentially troublesome.Pothole said:
The rest of your post smacks of irrelevant willy waving.
Again , Why ?The entirely relevant point is that I carry a range of items around for use in connection with my work , which some may wrongly suppose to be unlawful when in fact they are .
Almost anything could be misused as a weapon in the wrong hands ( for example a motor car ) but that does not preclude law abiding citizens from using them for legitimate purposes .
Dibble said:
Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person having it in a public place (eg it may have a bottle opener). It is for the suspect to prove on the balance of probabilities that s/he had good reason etc. for possession. (eg s/he was going to a party and needed the bottle opener with him/her).
There was expert evidence that the blade was eight centimetres long. That is of significance in that it was more than three inches and it had a pointed tip.
Held: In our judgment, the fact that an article prohibited under section 139 may be part of something that has other features that are not prohibited, does not stop it from being a prohibited article. Indeed, that is not something that has not been disputed in this appeal. But nor, in our judgment, does it raise a blanket defence of good reason for having it in a public place, just because the possessor could, if he felt minded to do so, use the tin opener, the bottle opener or the screwdriver or any other aspect of the implement. If he simply had the article in his possession, without any particular need or intention to use it for a lawful purpose that is insufficient to found a good reason.…..we think the defendant does have to prove a specific reason for having the article with him in a public place on the occasion alleged."
Yes, I've seen that before. It has a blade longer than 3", 76mm, so is illegal. Your point is?There was expert evidence that the blade was eight centimetres long. That is of significance in that it was more than three inches and it had a pointed tip.
Held: In our judgment, the fact that an article prohibited under section 139 may be part of something that has other features that are not prohibited, does not stop it from being a prohibited article. Indeed, that is not something that has not been disputed in this appeal. But nor, in our judgment, does it raise a blanket defence of good reason for having it in a public place, just because the possessor could, if he felt minded to do so, use the tin opener, the bottle opener or the screwdriver or any other aspect of the implement. If he simply had the article in his possession, without any particular need or intention to use it for a lawful purpose that is insufficient to found a good reason.…..we think the defendant does have to prove a specific reason for having the article with him in a public place on the occasion alleged."
Dibble said:
The point is even if the blade is less than 3" but it's still sharp/pointed, it can come under the legislation of s139CJA if it's not a folding/pocket knife, which clearly a multi tool is not.
No, that's your point. Nowhere in that case or statements does it say that. It says that having other legal tools on it does not make the illegal knife legal.Whether a multitool is a folding pocket knife or not will have to wait until it ends up in court and if common sense prevails.
Let's just hope it's not a law abiding citizen that's the victim of an overzealous officer.
daz3210 said:
Toltec said:
The least they could do is allow an exception for qualified engineers. When it comes to it why not shotgun cert holders too, after all if you are allowed to carry a shotgun why not a knife? What about if you have an enhanced crb?
I do understand the need to control knife crime, but why is there not a simple way for law abiding citizens to carry tools without breaking the law.
You aren't allowed to carry a shotgun in the manner you suggest. You are allowed to carry any gun that you have lawful right to have in your possession, providing it is covered in a manner such that it may not be fired. It must be unloaded (there is an argument that ammunition in any magazine is the same as loaded, even if the magazine is not in the gun. The carriage is supposed to be for the purpose of taking it to or from a place of legal use (or to/from a dealer). Thus, in essence you are allowed to carry only with reasonable excuse.I do understand the need to control knife crime, but why is there not a simple way for law abiding citizens to carry tools without breaking the law.
Edited by Toltec on Monday 17th September 10:11
Similarly, you are permitted the same privilege with a knife. You can carry one if you have reasonable excuse.
Just in case in either situation is not normally reasonable excuse, although someone like a scouts leader, diver etc may successfully argue the just in case argument
The point was that as a person granted the right to keep and carry a shotgun in public, albeit with restrictions, you are less likely to be using a knife to stab people. If you were why the hell have you been allowed to have a gun?
At a purely facetious level, you have a gun so why bother using a knife as a weapon?
What do the police do when the discover an object with screwdriver type point at one end and weighted with a large lump of metal at the other in the boot of your car? Carrying it just because you might have a puncture is hardly a sufficient reason for having a wheel brace in the car. Woe betide the person taking some kitchen knives on holiday, after all having them just because the place you have booked may not have any decent knives is hardly an excuse.
I am not having a go at the police, it is not their fault that they have to enforce bloody stupid laws that criminalise people with no intent to cause harm.
Pontoneer said:
Pothole said:
Pontoneer said:
I've got a 'Swiss Champ' in my pocket right now , and I seldom go anywhere without it .
That's potentially troublesome.Pontoneer said:
Pothole said:
The rest of your post smacks of irrelevant willy waving.
Again , Why ?The entirely relevant point is that I carry a range of items around for use in connection with my work , which some may wrongly suppose to be unlawful when in fact they are .
Almost anything could be misused as a weapon in the wrong hands ( for example a motor car ) but that does not preclude law abiding citizens from using them for legitimate purposes .
Pothole said:
Pontoneer said:
Pothole said:
Pontoneer said:
I've got a 'Swiss Champ' in my pocket right now , and I seldom go anywhere without it .
That's potentially troublesome.Pontoneer said:
Pothole said:
The rest of your post smacks of irrelevant willy waving.
Again , Why ?The entirely relevant point is that I carry a range of items around for use in connection with my work , which some may wrongly suppose to be unlawful when in fact they are .
Almost anything could be misused as a weapon in the wrong hands ( for example a motor car ) but that does not preclude law abiding citizens from using them for legitimate purposes .
Pictured in the link below
http://www.minitools.co.uk/products/victorinox/swi...
As for the second point - not being obtuse ? That was EXACTLY the point of the OP's question .
Edited by Pontoneer on Tuesday 18th September 08:10
daz3210 said:
Old Fart said:
It's always cased in the boot when I am on my way to a shoot, am I allowed to stop for a drink?
Read the act and decide.I have heard it suggested that some forces even try to say that you are not allowed to stop for petrol.
I don't know why you are even arguing, my original post said.....
'If you have the gun in a slip/case, have it unloaded, and are traveling to or from a place of use, you have the defence of reasonable excuse.'
Stopping for refreshments is part of the travel so makes no odds
In the context of the post that prompted my earlier post the suggestion was why is a knife different to a shotgun. My answer was simply it isn't, in both cases you have to have lawful excuse, except a shotgun should be covered and unloaded.
I like to contrast the UK with Switzerland (I am ½ Swiss) and there in ever city on every day and especially weekends you can see people carrying full-auto capable assault rifles, mags and ammo on busses and trains. Less common now than 20 years ago due to changes in Swiss conscription but still so common place as to be mundane. Swiss on Swiss murder rate and use of Firearms to “solve” problems is one of the lowest in the world. Though there is a problem with foreigners using the constitutionally trusting laws for their on ends.
Dibble said:
The law wrt bladed/pointed articles clearly outlines that you need a reason (work, religion, costume) to have a bladed article with you, you can't have it "just in case". Notwithstanding that, I'd like to think that most officers would be fairly pragmatic about the reasons someone had such an item with them, and where it might be in the car.
One hopes we would encounter a BiB with your common sense Dibs.My boat used to be moored on the Teign. Mrs Philthy and I frequently jumped in the tender, and went for a pint, in several of the nearby pubs. When I'm on the boat, or the tender, I always have an "Opinel" lock knife, for "just in case" (rope around prop etc).
It must be a bloody headache for you sometimes?
hora said:
What about pliers in your car? REALLY REALLY innocent looknig things but if you came towards me in an argument with them I would s
t myself. Anyone would.
Pliers do not fall under the definition of a bladed or sharply pointed article so it is not an offence to merely be in possession of them. If you intended to use them to cause injury to someone then they would be considered an offensive weapon and you would commit an offence. t myself. Anyone would. Cat
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