Speed 'not main road killer'
Discussion
deeen said:
That's why cameras are dangerous. Not because each individual box on a stick will kill someone, but because each time someone chooses to put another box on a stick they are choosing to enforce a bad law instead of choosing to improve road safety. They are not the same thing, you know!
It isn not a bad law.
It is a law which you do not like
SPEEDER! Many people do like it. That is why there are so many boxes on sticks appearing
7 men in a pub according to Mrs Cat!
What next? 'Three men in a boat?'
gone said:
TripleS said:
2. Many people make very sudden reductions in speed when they see a camera. In many cases they may have no need to brake, but in doing so they present a risk to following traffic that would not otherwise occur.
Why? If traffic followed at a safe an reasonable distance, it would make not the slightest bit of difference if someone braked to go through a site. In fact if it affected the person following it would give rise to the fact that that person was failing to observe the camera and was travelling too fast towards it as well!
You are of course correct Gone, however, many, many people do brake, even when well below the speed limit, thus they are indeed creating a hazard.
gone said:
Was not the "powers thaat be" who set this speed limit but....
..... seven men in a pub!
Sounds like a Jerome K Jerome book
But there again, us plod don't know things like that eh Mrs cat
This is quite correct, Gone. The speed limit through Ings in Cumbria was lowered from NSL to 40 mph following a discussion by 7 men in a pub (local councillors).
Try not to ridicule things you know nothing about, we will respect you more!
kevinday said:
You are of course correct Gone, however, many, many people do brake, even when well below the speed limit, thus they are indeed creating a hazard.
So what is the difference for someone braking because they are travelling towards a bend and need to lose some speed to get around it even though they are travelling at a speed which they could negotiate the bend before they brake as many people do?
Many things cause people to brake so whilst I agree that a braking vehicle does pose a hazard, it is no more of a hazard than any other reason a person brakes in front of you.
They may be braking for any number of reasons and the driver who is travelling at the correct distance and not too fast will bring this change of circumstances into his/her plan and deal with it.
With that line of thought, a bend is a hazard, so lets abolish bends?
kevinday said:
This is quite correct, Gone. The speed limit through Ings in Cumbria was lowered from NSL to 40 mph following a discussion by 7 men in a pub (local councillors).
Try not to ridicule things you know nothing about, we will respect you more!
I do know. I've read it
(3 men in a boat) And how do you know what I know about?
deeen said:
With that line of thought, a bend is a hazard, so lets abolish bends?
I believe that is a well respected road engineering solution.
That will go down well with TVR and Porsche drivers
How boring would that be?
Roundabouts? Are they not a series of bends? Lets do away with them too!
gone said:
deltaf said:
Scone it is then, with a filling of jam...
Trouble is I think the opposition has run off to hide. I guess they didn't like the look of our ammunition.
The whole page was basically stating that there is an arguement to make sure that training is given around a system. The system of car control (road craft) is tried and tested. According to Mrs Cat, COAST is a similar workable system.
Aber doch Liebchen - of course COAST works.... It is German/Swiss idea - we have different acronym in our language und we managed to fit it to COAST in yours. The Lancs Speed Course use it - not saying if our eldest cousin had anything to do damit - but is possible...
It fits to HC as well - but let us just use it similarly as my husband posted, fitting to HC124/125 to Paulie's own forum...(but shall leave out his little asides to "burpingworks"
) C
Concentrate on road condition and not getting hot und bothered when "numpty"
called "gone" undertakes you at great speed on way to sort out unexploded doughnuts ... (This is also showing consideration/courtesy to other road users as well - nicht?) You should also refrain from praying out loud if mungo is around when the ambulance is also whizzing past...lest you slow down in front of him by mistake ....and he has not anticipated that you may just be making space..... und if TripleS is on his Handy as well....are you allowed your rosary beads?
O
Observing the lollipops
, und junctions - especially where no-one has right of way, car park entrances and exits, parks, play areas, schools, pubs, churches, und when passing line of parked cars - observe the underneath for foot, ball, puffing exhaust from just switched on engine .... Und observing the antics of lieben gone speeding up the hard shoulders in search of unexploded doughnuts ...
A
Anticipating that numpty in front of you might just slam on the anchors in Pavlov Dog fashion on sight of PC Gatso ... that he might just panic brake on noting the sound of siren (they are not as easy to pin point as the old "Ri-in-gggg R -i-i-i-n N= GGGG!" or even the "Nee Naw" - they seem to resoound and bounce back off buildings these days ... und there should be a clip in that hazard test as well!)
Anticipating the child running after the ball you observed under the car, from the park/play are you past - or that the child cyclist may just hurtle out as well ...
Anticipating that lieber gone will be chasing after unexploded doughnuts up the hard shoulder and may suddenly emerge into L1 and cut off to L3 and go even more turbo in front of you!
Anticipating as well that the numpty who overtook you whilst you were legally travelling at 30 mph - ish in the 30 mph zone will then continue to be "in hurry in front of you at 44 mph in the NSL zone too"!"
S
This is the two second rule bit. Which means that if above numpty does this - you hold back and give space and courtesy dicates you refrain from rude words...
It also means giving space to lieben gone tonning up the hard shoulder in search of unexploded doughnuts and profiteroles.... (personally - think chocolate and gherkin butties now have the edge of culinary delights -
) T
This means - checking talivan TIME tables und TIMING your journey so as not to coincide with them.....
Of course - allowing sufficient time for your journey, oberving the time to set off, anticipating the hold ups and numpties like lieber gone, has nichts to do mit Time
gone said:
Drop the crap about speed cameras.
Concentrate on pushing the training methods available or even think up a new one.
Like I said before, be honest about your feelings regarding speed cameras rather than trying to disguise them with graphs, suppositions and wild statistics!
Und so should the Prats do likewise! Their stats as said above are well dodgy - und our forensic accountant/finance wallies - also expert at twisting figures to fit. That is what they do officially - so just maybe :scratcchin: our Paulie's take is more apt and takes photo as it is!
But really - we need completely objective take - und we ain't ever going to see that dues to vested interests and need to make MONEY from falsy pretences. Besides - Mad Doc did pass comment that we do need "candidates for organ donation" which could be why so much "lip service"
Am cynic - Liebchen - they wanted my corneas once upon a time .... gone said:
I don't like them either. I understand why they are there and have NEVER been caught by one (except at work when that is inevitable. My policy is to slow down to the limit when passing through so I do not activate it, even under blue lights as I am fed up of the resulting paperwork that they generate to be awarded an exemption!)
They create reams in LanCASH£re und Cumbria - which is yet another cost I object to paying for! But again - your having to slow down to avoid paper work from excessive whatever to tolerance level - that is also dangerous - because of micro-climate, grease on road, polish on surface, pothole (cos these twazaks never repair them
)... you could easily skid even though you are super duper driver....in super turbo charged and well serviced cop car .... gone said:
Learner drivers manage to drive within the legal parameters during their hour test without contravening any reguilations. They will pass speed cameras, possibly camera vans and sometimes speed checks through Police initiatives. They manage to evaluate speed and control their vehicle safely through that test within the law and to an examiners apoproval if they pass, without constantly checking the speedo. Why is that so difficult for people to maintain having done it to gain their licence?
My eldest kitten is still feeling his way und getting used to car's feel and handling. He is keeping it under instinctively. As he grows in confidence - that is when I will perhaps have to rein him in a bit... but this lad is a "natural" though I say it myself. Grown up with cars, listening to cars, looking at engines - just like me!
Incidentally - he passed his test this morning .... gone said:
I have said it before, but experienced drivers should be able to gauge their relevant speed without even looking at the speedo, especially if they are in/on their own vehicle which they ususally drive. An occasional glance is all that is needed to corroborate that the speed is correct.
Yes - we do! Our problem is fact that the prats around here have forests of the pesky things und have daft toleerances as well. Can you honestly tell me that you can "feel" difference between 30 mph and 33 mph? And if we go for 1 mph over (per Telegraph which contradicts another Dft paper here as well) -can you honestly say you will "feel this difference?"
I have skied in competition in my younger days - und success was measured in split seconds. But even so - not one competitor could "feel" this very slight difference in speed which had more to do with quality of the snow, choice of ski and amount of padding in the suit, your own weight, even weight of your long glossy hair, than anything else......
gone said:
More important than checking the device in front of your face is the mirrors at either side and above your head. Most drivers do not do this enough. I should know as they regularly fail to see me when I am travelling under blues as I approach them attempting the most bizarre manouvres when those that do see stop!
Like I said COAST - takes care of this - which is why the emphasis should be on this word rather than speed. Speed takes care of itself when even three out of the five letters are present.
Roundabouts are actually single bends which owing to a mysterious anomaly in the laws of physics continue through 720 degrees.
They are also a much lesser evil than traffic lights...
Most sports car drivers will trade you the straightening out of dangerous bends for some improved sightlines, please!
They are also a much lesser evil than traffic lights...
Most sports car drivers will trade you the straightening out of dangerous bends for some improved sightlines, please!
deeen said:
Roundabouts are actually single bends which owing to a mysterious anomaly in the laws of physics continue through 720 degrees.
Strange roundabouts in your area then!
Approach onto roaundabout = left hand bend
Negotiate roundabout straight across or turn right = right hand bend
leave roundabout = left hand bend.
That makes a series of bends X3?
deeen said:
They are also a much lesser evil than traffic lights...
I agree on that one.
deeen said:
Most sports car drivers will trade you the straightening out of dangerous bends for some improved sightlines, please!
Really? Not when they have had the proper input!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 12th October 12:21
gone said:
). As I understand it even Mrs Cat has the ability to distract when she is not burdened with impending child
"Even" Liebchen!
I am much more powerful than a yellow tin!
Even mit kitten ... I admit - to Steve who lurks here - that jam in Grasmere that day in April ....Me und my cousin Jess ....minding our own business - crossing the road to take kittens to Dove Cottage .... Let's just say -all slowed to well below the speed limit - in the village - which is 20mph ....
gone said:
Was not the "powers thaat be" who set this speed limit but....
..... seven men in a pub!
Sounds like a Jerome K Jerome book
But there again, us plod don't know things like that eh Mrs cat
It is true! The blokes who set it were known locally as right bunch of farties too!
But in any case - Liebchen - you should read more! It is good for you - you learn lots of long words!
But - I still have dificulties spelling "and"
gone said:
Most sports car drivers will trade you the straightening out of dangerous bends for some improved sightlines, please!
Really? Not when they have had the proper input!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 12th October 12:21
But of course... allows a higher appropriate safe speed through the corner!
WildCat said:
Like I said COAST - takes care of this - which is why the emphasis should be on this word rather than speed. Speed takes care of itself when even three out of the five letters are present.
Which is the real shame about the safespeed site.
He should concentrate on the publishing of this type of system rather than the crusade to rid the roads of speed cameras with the stats and graphs.
Unfortunately speed needs to have an arbitrary limit set because otherwise 'Granny Smith', 'Johnny passed my test 10 minutes ago' and 'Willy I've got a new Porsche' will chose a speed anything from the sublime to the ridiculous without any means of address until it all goes pear shaped for them and inevitably someone else too!
gone said:
Like I said COAST - takes care of this - which is why the emphasis should be on this word rather than speed. Speed takes care of itself when even three out of the five letters are present.
Which is the real shame about the safespeed site.
He should concentrate on the publishing of this type of system rather than the crusade to rid the roads of speed cameras with the stats and graphs.
Unfortunately speed needs to have an arbitrary limit set because otherwise 'Granny Smith', 'Johnny passed my test 10 minutes ago' and 'Willy I've got a new Porsche' will chose a speed anything from the sublime to the ridiculous without any means of address until it all goes pear shaped for them and inevitably someone else too!
Aber Liebchen - we are not talking abolishing speed limits und our Paulie does agree that we should have them too.
No - neither Mad Doc and I agree that we should be allowed to drive at unlimited speed on m/way just because we have driving qualifications which make us more "with it" than most. You could not administrate this und even if your number plate carried some kind of "recognition chip" - there would be great illegal trade in these.....
Like said - we enforce serious overspeeds and offer courses promoting COAST to all offenders regardless of scale of offence. We offer course without penalty points to marginals - as per current policy in Lancs - and in addition to points (which is the real punishment) to the rest.
Und we address the L-test and bring in graded assessments for all new drivers mit real incentives to do well.
But speed cams are not catching really bad drivers, und they are not really promoting idea of choosing safest speed to drive. That is where we need you - on the road - patrolling und delivering idea of COAST in firm, but friendly voices. Und lecturing really dangerous drivers, drink drivers, tired drivers, ill drivers, etc, in sternest voices mit sternest face on!
gone said:
Safespeed, your ammunition is contaminated with ingredients that will only make it fizzle out without any impact when it is discharged.
It is plastered with assumptions and spurious statistics.
You're mistaken. You're mistaken about assumptions, you're mistaken about spurios statistic and you're mistaken about the conclusions.
gone said:
I note the last link you posted about Time to react even had a small point about speed, right at the bottom. It stated that if the driver was travelling at an appropriate speed for the conditions, then stopping when necessary will not be an issue. Surely speed is the ultimate equation in this.
Absolutely. Speed is critical. But it isn't the sort of speed you measure in miles per hour, nor the sort of speed enforced by a speed limit. Instead it is appropriate speed for the conditions. These two sorts of speed are quite unrelated to one another, but neither you nor the government make the necessary distinction.
gone said:
The whole page was basically stating that there is an arguement to make sure that training is given around a system. The system of car control (road craft) is tried and tested. According to Mrs Cat, COAST is a similar workable system.
It says more than that - it's talking about how road safety ALREADY works in the real world. If we want to make it better then we need to do more of the things that work.
gone said:
Drop the crap about speed cameras.
Concentrate on pushing the training methods available or even think up a new one.
Like I said before, be honest about your feelings regarding speed cameras rather than trying to disguise them with graphs, suppositions and wild statistics!
I'm scrupulously honest, pal, so watch it.
I've never been caught by a speed camera and they don't much affect me directly. There are still none in my local area, although that is set to change.
I hate speed cameras because they are the worst road safety policy this country has ever seeen.
I hate speed cameras because they undermine real road safety.
I hate speed cameras because undermining road safety is killing us.
gone said:
I don't like them either. I understand why they are there and have NEVER been caught by one (except at work when that is inevitable. My policy is to slow down to the limit when passing through so I do not activate it, even under blue lights as I am fed up of the resulting paperwork that they generate to be awarded an exemption!)
Let me tell you then, that your instictive reaction to cameras as a trained driver is spot on. It's the government who is wrong. You're believing the spin coming from the office of a NON-DRIVING minister of transport.
gone said:
Learner drivers manage to drive within the legal parameters during their hour test without contravening any reguilations. They will pass speed cameras, possibly camera vans and sometimes speed checks through Police initiatives. They manage to evaluate speed and control their vehicle safely through that test within the law and to an examiners apoproval if they pass, without constantly checking the speedo. Why is that so difficult for people to maintain having done it to gain their licence?
I'm glad you brought up learner drivers. What sort of accident rate do learner and newly qualified drivers have? These are the people who REALLY need the speed limits because they have not yet developed hazard perception.
As we develop hazard perception the number on the speedo becomes less and less important and as it does, so our accident rate drops and drops (over at least the first 8 years of gaining experience).
Tell, me: Could you drive perfectly safely without a working speedo? If you could, just how important is the number on the speedo?
gone said:
I have said it before, but experienced drivers should be able to gauge their relevant speed without even looking at the speedo, especially if they are in/on their own vehicle which they ususally drive. An occasional glance is all that is needed to corroborate that the speed is correct.
More important than checking the device in front of your face is the mirrors at either side and above your head. Most drivers do not do this enough. I should know as they regularly fail to see me when I am travelling under blues as I approach them attempting the most bizarre manouvres when those that do see stop!
I defy anyone to correctly guess their speed in miles per hour immediately after a long high speed run.
But before you claim that this shows how important the speed in miles per hour is, consider this:
Your ability to judge braking distance is COMPLETELY unaffected after a high speed run, yet your ability to judge speed in miles per hour is out of the window.
THAT'S the two different sorts of speed. Speed in MPH is unimportant to experienced drivers. The distance taken to stop is VITAL to drivers and road safety.
gone said:
Which is the real shame about the safespeed site.
He should concentrate on the publishing of this type of system rather than the crusade to rid the roads of speed cameras with the stats and graphs.
Unfortunately speed needs to have an arbitrary limit set because otherwise 'Granny Smith', 'Johnny passed my test 10 minutes ago' and 'Willy I've got a new Porsche' will chose a speed anything from the sublime to the ridiculous without any means of address until it all goes pear shaped for them and inevitably someone else too!
FFS, Gone, no one is talking about getting rid of speed limits.
Properly set speed limits, enforced intelligently and with due regard for the conditions are an excellent road safety tool.
safespeed said:
As we develop hazard perception the number on the speedo becomes less and less important and as it does, so our accident rate drops and drops (over at least the first 8 years of gaining experience).
Tell, me: Could you drive perfectly safely without a working speedo? If you could, just how important is the number on the speedo
This to me is a good arguament.
I can honestly say that my driving would not change if my car did'nt have a speedo. We are back to the same old arguament.
gone.
Yes higher speeds mean a worse result at impact, but in MOST cases, it is not speed that causes accidents- it is excessive speed for the circumstances.As has been said a zillion times :yawn: sometimes 20mph is too fast!! Sometimes 90mph on a motorway is fine. The multi car pile up's could be attributed to excessive speed; I would say that it is driving without paying heed to the conditions. ie not slowing down to a speed where you can see or stop. That speed can sometimes be as low as 30mph on a really foggy motorway. I accept that you frequently see the results of accidents; but consider how many MILLIONS of jouneys are driven EVERY DAY at speeds sometimes faster, sometimes slower than posted limits. Yes we all see examples of poor standards of driving every day. But remember all of the other hundreds of drivers around you that are driving ok!! Your eye is not drawn to them. It is a bit like asking someone to look at a piece of paper with a black dot on it. Invariably, they see the black dot. They never say "Its a white piece of paper, and oh by the way, there is a black dot on it. I think that you are only looking at the BAD examples and results. Try looking at the good driving , which accounts for a large percentage ( most of the time ) of typical driving.For example. Yesterday I was on my bike riding home. I was in the nearside lane of a large roundabout ready to turn off left. A women was to my right on the offside lane, signalling to turn left also. However, her obseravtion was excellent; she saw me; I saw her... let her in and thanked her for her observation.
gone said:
This is quite correct, Gone. The speed limit through Ings in Cumbria was lowered from NSL to 40 mph following a discussion by 7 men in a pub (local councillors).
Try not to ridicule things you know nothing about, we will respect you more!
I do know. I've read it
And how do you know what I know about?
Because of your response to Wildcat. I had a lot of respect for Madcop.
I'm a relatively new driver compared to some of you on here (had a license 4 yrs or so). However in that time I have driven approx 70,000 miles and i've been at uni for two of those years and only driven in the hols. My annual mileage is normally about 25-27k
I'm currently on my placement from uni and in 4 and 1/2 months have driven over 9,000 miles most of them at high speed eg. Motorways & Dual carriageways.
I've also taken Pass Plus and completed an 8hr Ride Drive course (The only one of my friends to do so).
I don't consider myself a good driver, perhaps above average for my age but there is still room for improvement.
I drive though my village going off to work in the mornings at 06:30 and frequently find myself doing 35-40 through the 30 when I don't look at my speedo, however coming home from work at 16:00 my speedo rarely gets to 30mph espically down the high street. Hopefully this is me choosing the appropriate speed for the conditions!!
My crusing speed on dry, clear dual carriageways is normally around 84-90 and I use all my senses and TomTom with the speed camera db to look for "hazards"
I have more of an issue of getting tired when driving and always pull over if I feel the need as this to me is more of an issue than being slightly over the speed limit.
I'm currently on my placement from uni and in 4 and 1/2 months have driven over 9,000 miles most of them at high speed eg. Motorways & Dual carriageways.
I've also taken Pass Plus and completed an 8hr Ride Drive course (The only one of my friends to do so).
I don't consider myself a good driver, perhaps above average for my age but there is still room for improvement.
I drive though my village going off to work in the mornings at 06:30 and frequently find myself doing 35-40 through the 30 when I don't look at my speedo, however coming home from work at 16:00 my speedo rarely gets to 30mph espically down the high street. Hopefully this is me choosing the appropriate speed for the conditions!!
My crusing speed on dry, clear dual carriageways is normally around 84-90 and I use all my senses and TomTom with the speed camera db to look for "hazards"
I have more of an issue of getting tired when driving and always pull over if I feel the need as this to me is more of an issue than being slightly over the speed limit.
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