Speed 'not main road killer'
Discussion
Streetcop said:
I must agree.....the majority of drivers do drive safely...not particularly well..but safely...
I regularly see cutting across lanes on roundabout and that sort of stuff...but outright dangerous driving is thankfully quite rare.....
Of course most drive safely - as for cutting across lanes at roundabouts ..... bit of hammering at learner stage ... and clearer signage on approach to some orf them will help.
Lot of lane switching around where we live has more to do with unfamiliarity - most of the drivers through here are holiday makers .....
Guess it is case of HC 125 - the consideration to others advice, COAST and common sense .....
safespeed said:
The MAJORITY? Really? I don't know what roads you're observing,
Try any motorway with busy traffic conditions!
Tailgating,
Bad use of lane discipline,
Lane hopping,
Illegal use of the hard shoulder,
Reversing off slip roads, sometimes from the very bottom or top of it.
Need I say any more
safespeed said:
but I see at least 19/20 vehicles being driven with reasonable care and responsibility.
Hmmmmm!
safespeed said:
Sure, we're not perfect and there's room for improvement, but penalising responsible drivers at random for exceeding an arbitrary limit safely isn't going to help is it?
The problem is that all drivers have occasions when due to personal or other circumstances, they become irresponsible! If they happen to be in excess of a speed that is 'reasonable' and set in law as a 'safe speed' for that environment at that time and it goes wrong. The consequences are likely to be much more severe than if they were travelling within that arbitrary limit.
gone said:
safespeed said:
The MAJORITY? Really? I don't know what roads you're observing,
Try any motorway with busy traffic conditions!
You mean the car park also known as M6
(But having driven on M25 - all I can say is - we are civilised up North by comparison. gone said:
Tailgating,
This - agree - one thing I can never understand - they do it even when they have space to overtake
But PC Gatso und PC Talivan do not cop these pretzels of most half baked variety - do they - Liebchen? 
gone said:
Bad use of lane discipline,
Lane hopping,
Weaver birds have little brain! But again a scam is not going to sort it out - is it?
Education hammering on TV may help - it seemed to in "good old days" but they had constant adverts on the telly then! Like they do in Germany and Austria, and Switzerland, and France and Italy.... but here? hahaha= it costs money! Does not make it!
gone said:
Illegal use of the hard shoulder,
Well - you know all about that one!
Unexploded doughnuts 
Und 105 mph .... (Und he says he was on urgent shout .... to dunk his doughnuts
) gone said:
Reversing off slip roads, sometimes from the very bottom or top of it.
Seen BiBs do this a few times
..... Und one trucky ... 
Do not see this every day in week though - but have such a sheltered life in that lab of mine - blowing things up!
gone said:
but I see at least 19/20 vehicles being driven with reasonable care and responsibility.
Hmmmmm!
Told you before - we are quality - pure quality up North!
But just recently -- noted some decline in standard up here- and this is in line with proliferation of speed cams - more have appeared in Lancs - and one of the relations has commented on poorly maintained road surfaces around here.
Of course - we have had you lot coming up from South to tour
gone said:
Sure, we're not perfect and there's room for improvement, but penalising responsible drivers at random for exceeding an arbitrary limit safely isn't going to help is it?
The problem is that all drivers have occasions when due to personal or other circumstances, they become irresponsible! If they happen to be in excess of a speed that is 'reasonable' and set in law as a 'safe speed' for that environment at that time and it goes wrong. The consequences are likely to be much more severe than if they were travelling within that arbitrary limit.
Never lost control of myself - ever... but again we are not teaching people enough about dangers of prescription drugs, and too many are chancing driving under other influences because mein Liebchen - you have been replaced by a robot who is only stationed where he can be sure of earning a few quid. Again - boils down to lack of information/hot tip/advice adverts on the telly, too few traffic police, too many kerbside cash cows and sneaky twazaks in talivans.
And lousy tuition in the first place
At least my son is being taught correctly by RAC, ourselves und my own Papa gave him some lessons .....und the family BiBs have been involved on the odd run out too! If he passes test - he does Pass Plus almost immediately afterwards und then IAM - we want to be sure he is as clued up as he can be as soon as possible! >> Edited by WildCat on Sunday 3rd October 18:36
gone said:
You forget why!
Who is it that gets up local petitions and writes to local papers every week of the year in every local town where there is such a journal applying pressure to councils to 'lower the limit', 'put in humps', 'traffic calming', 'speed cameras', other draconian measure to stop others from driving fast through their district?
Pressure from the 'people' is the reason it happens!
That's because they have been brainwashed by professional liars to believe that breaking a speed limit is a major cause of road deaths. It's a complete and demonstrable lie.
gone said:
If they happen to be in excess of a speed that is 'reasonable' and set in law as a 'safe speed' for that environment at that time and it goes wrong.
UK law has virtually no concept of a safe speed. That's a crime in its own right.
gone said:
The consequences are likely to be much more severe than if they were travelling within that arbitrary limit.
This claim is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. The fact that is "sounds reasonable" and "appeals to physics" does not even begin to make it true in the real world. All sorts of real world evidence is available to point out that there's no relationship between a speed chosen by a responsible motorist and impact speed in the real world. Try:
www.safespeed.org.uk/12mph.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/proof.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/timetoreact.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/inattention.html
There's plenty more if you're not convinced.
Pointless to argue with "gone" as i think he's so rigidly stuck into "the law is the law", i doubt you could pry him off of it with a 10 foot pole.
Sure he has experience, he has driver skill, but it appears he's a bit blinkered when it comes to an obvious and common sense pov, ie, that speed isnt the big killer that his overlords and masters have programmed him to believe.
The law may well be the law, but if we(the majority-thats democracy btw) wont abide by it cos its wrong/unfair then it should be changed to suit them, not the minority.
If it continues to be pushed upon the majority to their detriment and also to that of road safety issues, then the time will soon come when there will be a god almighty backlash, and the police will be on the recieving end of something theyll not be able to subdue.
Something to bear in mind when the fit inevitably hits the shan..no?
Sure he has experience, he has driver skill, but it appears he's a bit blinkered when it comes to an obvious and common sense pov, ie, that speed isnt the big killer that his overlords and masters have programmed him to believe.
The law may well be the law, but if we(the majority-thats democracy btw) wont abide by it cos its wrong/unfair then it should be changed to suit them, not the minority.
If it continues to be pushed upon the majority to their detriment and also to that of road safety issues, then the time will soon come when there will be a god almighty backlash, and the police will be on the recieving end of something theyll not be able to subdue.
Something to bear in mind when the fit inevitably hits the shan..no?
Tafia said:
You forget why!
Who is it that gets up local petitions and writes to local papers every week of the year in every local town where there is such a journal applying pressure to councils to 'lower the limit', 'put in humps', 'traffic calming', 'speed cameras', other draconian measure to stop others from driving fast through their district?
Pressure from the 'people' is the reason it happens!
That's because they have been brainwashed by professional liars to believe that breaking a speed limit is a major cause of road deaths. It's a complete and demonstrable lie.
Common knowledge up here that the speed limit of a certain well targetted and extremely lucrative scmaera site up here was decided by 7 blokes in a pub!
Ings - A591. Talivan sits on pavement yards after the speed limit change. Most tourist traffic entering Ings at that point are ca 45/46 mph and decelerating towards the lower speed. This talivan actually hits them before they pass the sign.
Road is downhill gradient at this point as well - and tourists, in particular, get ticketed because of unfamiliarity.....
How do I know for sure?
Because I use a useful gadget - like my wife and each member of our respecitve families who come to pay us a visit. It zaps every car at that point when it is stationed there. If it is there - anything that moves! Bet they have even zapped me on the pushbike - and I was pedalling "furiously" at the time!
We also have the cycle lanes from hell as well.... Far from make my life on the push bike (Yup - I am one of the lycra clad brigade as well
) - these cycle lanes around here have increased my chances of getting run over! Speed humps? Road where one of my sisters has lived for past 20 years or so has road humps. These are so high - they take out sumps! Not exactly road safety conscious then when they cause car to leak oil badly - and maybe seize up on busy road somewhere!
Oh - and who asked for the humps? Some busybody who recently moved into the area and piddled off when her husband could not take any more and they ended in divorce court ....
Sis and the other residents - meantime - are petitioning for their removal on basis that they are spending fortune at the garage!
Road in Preston area - speed limit cut from 40 mph to 30 mph -
Locals petitioned for this?
Not one of them knew about it until red oblong appeared - followed closely by a talivan which copped half the residents according to local paper. But village in Lancashire Hills which meets each and every requirement for a speed camera? Is speed trap in village itself?
NOPE! According to pal who lives somewhere in Clitheroe area.... Talivan trap is placed outside village in close proximity to speed limit change to NSL! Who did it cop?
Mostly people who live in that area .... Did the villagers petition for speed trap?
No-one has apparently owned up!
But if they do - they are "Martin" types from "Ever Decreasing Circles!"
First class prats!
deltaf said:
Pointless to argue with "gone" as i think he's so rigidly stuck into "the law is the law", i doubt you could pry him off of it with a 10 foot pole.
That does seem apparent....
But he is a cop - so has to toe party line. BiBs in this family tend to preach "compliance" - most unwise if in Wildy's vicinity Those claws of hers 
deltaf said:
Sure he has experience, he has driver skill, but it appears he's a bit blinkered when it comes to an obvious and common sense pov, ie, that speed isnt the big killer that his overlords and masters have programmed him to believe.
They must be hypnotized each time they clock on during briefing sessions.
There does seem to be an element of "I have been trained to drive at these speeds" as well.
Indeed they have - but it makes them no more safe nor any better than anyone else. Saw police car tailgating someone on M6 today. In rain! And the one who entered M6 a bit back on J34
! Not the easiest of m'way slips - but this guy's entry to M6 there was one of worst I have ever seen on that junction - which must be one of worst in country anyway! He plonked himself in middle lane at 60 mph.... and left at J33... Nor does it mean that all other drivers on the road are bumbling fools either. Accidents happen for variety of reasons - and speed is not the actual cause - but we are not going to deny its effect on outcome either.
But - most drivers are capable of driving a car at 80mph along a motorway without accident.
What is needed is a hard look at the actual causes of these accidents and ensure appropriate training and advice is given. Adverts regarding two second rule, weaver bird, tailgating, use of head/fog lights, inattention, fatigue, drink and drugs, tyre checks come pretty high on my list of things I would like to see sandwiched between episodes of Emmerdrivel and Corrie.
deltaf said:
The law may well be the law, but if we(the majority-thats democracy btw) wont abide by it cos its wrong/unfair then it should be changed to suit them, not the minority.
If it continues to be pushed upon the majority to their detriment and also to that of road safety issues, then the time will soon come when there will be a god almighty backlash, and the police will be on the recieving end of something theyll not be able to subdue.
If scams proliferate at rate they are - then patience will snap sooner or later. Wildy and her cousin did see the results of backlash against draconian law at first hand - East Germany 1989
We had revolt over poll tax, and we are seeing people rising up in anger over council tax rises and other issues. Lot of anger bubbling in normal civil England over a number of issues - and it will not take much for an inferno - and Gatsos have already been first in line for the "torching!"
deltaf said:
Something to bear in mind when the fit inevitably hits the shan..no?
I think gone and pals had better pack up supply of doughnuts and then go ton it up the hard shoulder to find that
to hide under when that happens (It is quite comfy there actually )Dibble said:
Bet they have even zapped me on the pushbike - and I was pedalling "furiously" at the time!
I'm sure there's an offence for "furious" cycling...
If only I hadn't "enjoyed" so much vino tinto, I may have been able to remember the Act and Section!
I am sure you could do me for that under Road Traffic Act of 1988 - according to the family BiB across A66 from me!
I admit it ! I was going at some rate! I was SPEEDING! On a BIKE!
Right little muesli munching health freak on the quiet!
But safer to get off and push in Ambleside ...
And there are other cycle lanes equally dire around here ......madness! safespeed said:
If they happen to be in excess of a speed that is 'reasonable' and set in law as a 'safe speed' for that environment at that time and it goes wrong.
UK law has virtually no concept of a safe speed. That's a crime in its own right.
gone said:
The consequences are likely to be much more severe than if they were travelling within that arbitrary limit.
This claim is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. The fact that is "sounds reasonable" and "appeals to physics" does not even begin to make it true in the real world. All sorts of real world evidence is available to point out that there's no relationship between a speed chosen by a responsible motorist and impact speed in the real world. Try:
www.safespeed.org.uk/12mph.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/proof.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/timetoreact.html
www.safespeed.org.uk/inattention.html
There's plenty more if you're not convinced.
Interesting! It will also be interesting to see the response to this.
monster1 said:
Every single collision I have attended could have been avoided. It’s not always the drivers fault, a drunken pedestrian walking out in front of a car etc. but if the driver was doing 20mph not 30mph he could have stopped in time.
But if he was travelling at 20 when the collision occured than he would have been past the collision point if he had been travelling at 30 (i.e. drunk would have walked out behind the car).
Let's see the issue as driving standards or better still a basic ability to control a motor vehicle in various conditions.
I have no doubt that general driving standards are becoming worse and worse. I've been stunned at the lack ability of some drivers since the weather's changed a bit - colder and wet roads.
Certainly they are more "old" drivers on the road - reactions do slow down.
They are alot of non UK tested drivers on the road.
I would guess they're alot of drivers on the road that don't even have a licience from anywhere.
And for that matter i don't understand how even some of the UK tested drivers have a licience. How often do you come across someone who plainly has no idea.
I really would back a scheme to be re tested every 15 years.
Eyesight tests every 5 years.
Over the age of 50 - full medical test every 5 years.
And just make the driving test more difficult - proper car control - is not something that can be learnt driving at 30mph.
Driving is not a right - it's something that should earned !
deltaf said:
Pointless to argue with "gone" as i think he's so rigidly stuck into "the law is the law", i doubt you could pry him off of it with a 10 foot pole.
Not the case. I understand that lots of people want to drive faster. In some cases I would agree that it may be possible.
The 'common sense' bit is missing from Safespeed arguement.
You can prove or disprove anything you like to a certain extent with figures and fancy definitions of words.
The palin fact is that if you crash from a higher speed, you will do more damage to something than if you crashed at a lower speed.
Travelling at higher speeds means that you need to plan earlier and make decisions earlier than most people are trained to do. Only further training will allow people to do so more safely than they do now.
The plain common sense fact is that even if you are highly trained and can cope with the control of the vehicle exceptionally well, if you crash it at high speed, you are in the poo and the result then is largly down to luck!
This is less likely than if you are not trained but you can never ever cater for all eventualities. It helps if you have garish colours, loud sounds and flashing lights to warn of your presence. (I know some of you havee these, I have seen the pictures of paint jobs and heard the steroes at Pistonfest!)
deltaf said:
Sure he has experience, he has driver skill, but it appears he's a bit blinkered when it comes to an obvious and common sense pov, ie, that speed isnt the big killer that his overlords and masters have programmed him to believe.
Common sense and attending many different sorts of crashes tell me that speed isnt the killer, its the stopping when something goes wrong whilst the speed is still high.
Take 2 motorcyclists spilling from their machines at 70mph on a bend. The first sails through the adjacent hedgerow and into the field suffereing no more than a sore arse and a few scratches where he/she ends up 50 yards into the field and gets up to walk back to the wreckage of the machine. 70mph to 0mph over the distance of 50yards was survivable.
The second is unlucky and in the hedge whilst travelling himself unaided at 68mph because friction on the road/verge has slowed him/her down marginally in the available space before he/her is brought to an abrupt and sudden stop by a tree/telegraph pole fence post! 70mph to 0mph in less than 20 feet on a hard object is not.
Should both riders have fallen off at 20mph, in the exact same circumstances, then the results would have been survivable (if not serious for the second one).
So all your arguements that speed is not a determining factor in the consequences of a crash are nonsense.
I agree that speed is little often the cause of an accident. I have filled enough accident statistic books in to know about the causes and to have contributed to the very figures that safespeed uses to rebut the evidence.
Speed is not the cause of most accidents. This is mainly down to human error whether they be momentary mistakes or miscalculated risks.
Deceleration from high speed is the cause of many serious injuries serious damage and death the quicker the deceleration and the shorter the distance this occurs, then the more damage is done.
deltaf said:
The law may well be the law, but if we(the majority-thats democracy btw) wont abide by it cos its wrong/unfair then it should be changed to suit them, not the minority.
But the majority want people to abide by it, especially when they are driving through residential areas (read your local wrags) and between them unless of course they happen to have changed their status at that particular moment from resident to driver! That then is a different desire altogether.
deltaf said:
If it continues to be pushed upon the majority to their detriment and also to that of road safety issues, then the time will soon come when there will be a god almighty backlash, and the police will be on the recieving end of something theyll not be able to subdue.
Don't bet on it
deltaf said:
Something to bear in mind when the fit inevitably hits the shan..no?
Bring it on baby, bring it on!
>> Edited by gone on Monday 4th October 14:55
WildCat said:
gone said:
Illegal use of the hard shoulder,
Well - you know all about that one!
(Und he says he was on urgent shout .... to dunk his doughnuts
And should your lab have been about to launch into orbit.....
Spec you would have appreciated the ton up down the HS Its really got you that one eh Wildcat?
Still if you don't understand then I can see your cause for concern
I won't divulge what I was attending because it is secret
All done in the 'Best Possible taste' (Kenny Everit style) and perfectly safely to boot!
wildcat said:
gone said:
Reversing off slip roads, sometimes from the very bottom or top of it.
Seen BiBs do this a few times
When they have no option other than a 30 mile round trip to get to an emergency or incident that may be happening behind them or to to catch the buggers that are reversing off behind them.
Police cars are fitted with flashing blue/red/amber lights and have experienced motorway patrol officers driving them
They are not Pretzels (as you say) who have failed to look over the bridge on crossing over it to see the 10 miles of stationary traffic before they continue 150 meters onto the slip road and realise they then have an out backwards whence they came.
wildcat said:
Do not see this every day in week though - but have such a sheltered life in that lab of mine - blowing things up!
Move the Lab to a nearby slip road with a view and you will be horrified
wildcat said:
Told you before - we are quality - pure quality up North!
You may well be personally with your COAST.
Ask 20 people on the street who have driving licences about COAST and 19 out of 20 will direct you to Blackpool!
>> Edited by gone on Monday 4th October 15:47
gone said:
The palin fact is that if you crash from a higher speed, you will do more damage to something than if you crashed at a lower speed.
Travelling at higher speeds means that you need to plan earlier and make decisions earlier than most people are trained to do. Only further training will allow people to do so more safely than they do now.
Always argued for training - would like to see assessed training every few years - thus keeping check on medical records, eyesight as well as developed skills. Carrot has to be a grade which is rewarded in some way - reduced comprehensive insurance premiums in line with "grades" seems good incentive.
gone said:
Sure he has experience, he has driver skill, but it appears he's a bit blinkered when it comes to an obvious and common sense pov, ie, that speed isnt the big killer that his overlords and masters have programmed him to believe.
Common sense and attending many different sorts of crashes tell me that speed isnt the killer, its the stopping when something goes wrong whilst the speed is still high.
No one will deny the effect on outcome. But what causes the error in first place? Combination of over confidence and one or more elements of COAST are missing?
gone said:
Take 2 motorcyclists spilling from their machines at 70mph on a bend. The first sails through the adjacent hedgerow and into the field suffereing no more than a sore arse and a few scratches where he/she ends up 50 yards into the field and gets up to walk back to the wreckage of the machine. 70mph to 0mph over the distance of 50yards was survivable.
The second is unlucky and in the hedge whilst travelling himself unaided at 68mph because friction on the road/verge has slowed him/her down marginally in the available space before he/her is brought to an abrupt and sudden stop by a tree/telegraph pole fence post! 70mph to 0mph in less than 20 feet on a hard object is not.
Again - misreading the road and the bend - COAST - all missing! They will not get the message about speed at all - hammer COAST - we may just start seeing some differences in behaviour patterns. COAST means bikers conentrate on road ahead, observe the road markings, anticipate the bend and adjust the speed and timing to take it accordingly. Admittedly - takes more time, effort and MONEY to process than a photo and a fine - but fines are not bringing about a learning factor - just more resentments...
gone said:
Should both riders have fallen off at 20mph, in the exact same circumstances, then the results would have been survivable (if not serious for the second one).
Grazed legs from the tarmac - might have needed stitches
Might have been heavy bleeder too! Would still have been serious if head met tree at 20 mph
But then - would they have lost control at 20mph? gone said:
I agree that speed is little often the cause of an accident. I have filled enough accident statistic books in to know about the causes and to have contributed to the very figures that safespeed uses to rebut the evidence.
Speed is not the cause of most accidents. This is mainly down to human error whether they be momentary mistakes or miscalculated risks.
Deceleration from high speed is the cause of many serious injuries serious damage and death the quicker the deceleration and the shorter the distance this occurs, then the more damage is done.
But do you not agree that training and advert campaign on elements of COAST would help reduce all this with better effect than whacking up a speed camera?
Plus input on this from BiBs in course of their duty?
gone said:
The law may well be the law, but if we(the majority-thats democracy btw) wont abide by it cos its wrong/unfair then it should be changed to suit them, not the minority.
But the majority want people to abide by it, especially when they are driving through residential areas (read your local wrags) and between them unless of course they happen to have changed their status at that particular moment from resident to driver! That then is a different desire altogether.
Majority I speak to do not want speed cams - they want cops!
No-one is advocating abolishing speed limits here - but majority want to see laws on speeding enforced more sensibly - targetting the dangerous drivers and perhaps warning to marginals - with emphasis on COAST!
safespeed said:
gone said:
The consequences are likely to be much more severe than if they were travelling within that arbitrary limit.
This claim is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
No it isn't at all.
There has to be an arbitrary limit because if there were not, people would chose their own speeds which would be somewhere between the sublime and the rediculous!
safespeed said:
The fact that is "sounds reasonable" and "appeals to physics" does not even begin to make it true in the real world. All sorts of real world evidence is available to point out that there's no relationship between a speed chosen by a responsible motorist and impact speed in the real world.
You can attach all the links you like which try and rebut this but I have been to the physical remains of vehicles and people that have crashed when travelling at high speed many times. Had they been travelling at half the speed they were when distaster struck, they may well be here to tell the tale. The may well have averted a collision altogether. Sadly many are not!
Your statement above just defies any sort of logic at all!
safespeed said:
There's plenty more if you're not convinced.
When I start wagging up to collisions where the driver was travelling at a responsible speed (in his/her own objective view) and there is no damage or injury, you may well convince me that there is no link between speed and consequences!
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