ACPO an "unaccountable club"

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

You might not like the connection with SCPs but speed cameras only enforce existing limits so again this hardly constitutes a major scam or other such hyperbole.

SCPs constantly try to perpetuate the myth that the cameras and operators are infallible.
They are NOT.

They are just another group of individuals who feel they are entitled to lie and misrepresent "for the common good".
They do this with the tacit approval of ACPO, under whose auspices they work.

They do not just "enforce" limits - they prosecute offenders after the event, and fail to stop the offending continuing.
They also prosecute innocent drivers too, who have fallen foul of faulty and misused equipment.
In the words of Judge Hughes when he upheld an appeal by golfer Colin Montgomery:

Judge Peter Hughes said:

In our judgment, Mr Griffin was not following the ACPO Code of Practice and targeting each vehicle and then keeping it within direct sight throughout the period of observation.
It is plain that he was panning from one car to another in rapid succession.
It produced two error readings in the process.
When he got to Mr Montgomerie's BMW, it is clear from the DVD that the beam tracked across the back of the car from the offside light cluster to below the number plate. It happened to pass across the reflective surface of the number plate and to obtain a reading without throwing up an error code.

All three members of the court had serious reservations about the way in which Mr Griffin went about his work, the way he carried out his pre-deployment checks and more especially the way he was operating the equipment and selecting targets at random.

[Mill Wheel]

GC8 said:

What a shockingly poor letter.

It's only a friendly note to his friend Danny!

Danny, your equipment is a crock of st designed to earn money and deny justice!

[carinaman]

Every tool or piece of equipment ever invented can be misused or give invalid results, but equipment belonging to the police and approved by the Home office can't?



When they can't even keep drugs seized from criminals safe from criminal police officers that line their pockets selling the confiscated drugs back to drugs dealers they're going to lecture me about the accuracy of electronic equipment?



It's Hillsborough. It's police officers making it up as they go along.

Police, could you?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294378/Di...

Beacuse if it was approved the outcome would have been very different wouldn't it?

And the bloke that made millions selling novelty golf ball detectors as bomb detectors was an ex-police officer too.


So when the police couldn't get Jimmy Savile as they were 'duped' by his celebrity why would they think they could be experts on bits of kit that incorporate electronics?

Police, because what we says goes so there.


Ah well at least the Snooper's Charter means something like Jimmy Savile couldn't happen again. And it'll save us from terrorists too.

Edited by carinaman on Saturday 25th May 20:41

[XDA]

Devil2575 said:

XDA said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1145581/Bo...

Edited by XDA on Saturday 25th May 10:55

I read the article. Yes there are issues there to do with a lack of accountability etc but none which deserve the title racketeering gangsters.
No one at ACPO is being paid a high salary or getting large bonuses based on numbers of speeding tickets issued or number of CRB checks carried out are they.

You might not like the connection with SCPs but speed cameras only enforce existing limits so again this hardly constitutes a major scam or other such hyperbole.

As for what I said in a thread some time ago. I'm not going to go back through 22 pages to try and work out what you are refering too. If you have something to say, just say it. Lots of people talk rubbish on PH, the fact that you remember what I said back then is rather worrying...do you keep records?

Have you seen the wage bill for ACPO? It's around the £1M mark.

The fact you repeat the same bks everytime this subject comes up, makes it easy to remember what you put.

Mill Wheel said:

Steve Callaghan claims he has business interests that mean he has no need to work.
Since at that time he claimed on Linkedin to be founder of a company with a £1 million annual turnover, which later turned out to be a failed business with a £7500 CCJ against him and the company, and Company House returns showed a TOTAL turnover for 5 years of less than £1 million, I would take ANYTHING he says with a degree of suspicion.

Running your own company wasn't as "plane sailing" as Steve thought it would be!

Mill Wheel said:

GC8 said:

What a shockingly poor letter.

It's only a friendly note to his friend Danny!

Danny, your equipment is a crock of st designed to earn money and deny justice!

No different to typo's that plague his posts on here (and elsewhere!).

Seems SCP's require low literacy levels

carinaman said:

Every tool or piece of equipment ever invented can be misused or give invalid results, but equipment belonging to the police and approved by the Home office can't?

Edited by carinaman on Saturday 25th May 20:41

That always make me chuckle!

[Devil2575]

Mill Wheel said:

The management of ACPO benefit hugely with many on £100,000+ salaries.
SCP employees benefit from their employment, and protect their futures by claiming they are indispensable to the road safety.

No one needs to employee the services of an SCP though do they? The issue you really have is not with the SCP it is with the speed limits and the enforcement of them.
Do you object to the entire principle of ACPO, in which case any salary would be unacceptable, or do you just think 100k is too much?

Mill Wheel said:

You (Devil2575)on the other hand seem to accept a rosy image of SCPs and ACPO on a level akin to belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
Good luck with that - it is quaint in this day and age of information technology, that somebody still holds such beliefs.

What a load of rubbish. Text book example of a false dichotomy, you either hate ACPO and SCPs or love them. You either believe that this is my view, in which case you're not that bright, or you're using a tired old tactic to try and score points.

[Devil2575]

XDA said:

Have you seen the wage bill for ACPO? It's around the £1M mark.

The fact you repeat the same bks everytime this subject comes up, makes it easy to remember what you said

How many times have I commented on ACPO in the past?

The average salary is about 60k according to the Daily Wail which is hardly massive. That's about 16 people on the pay role. Is the figure of 1M supposed to impress? These days it doesn't actually go that far.

Maybe I have used the same arguments before, perhaps because they are still valid. You lot seem to trot out the same old ste ad nauseum.

I don't especially remember details of who said what exactly in previous exchanges but I will remember this one.

[premio]

Devil2575 said:

How many times have I commented on ACPO in the past?

The average salary is about 60k according to the Daily Wail which is hardly massive. That's about 16 people on the pay role. Is the figure of 1M supposed to impress? These days it doesn't actually go that far.

Maybe I have used the same arguments before, perhaps because they are still valid. You lot seem to trot out the same old ste ad nauseum.

I don't especially remember details of who said what exactly in previous exchanges but I will remember this one.

Thing with the salary is that they are not full time - most are the 'ACPO lead' for a particular theme and might do a day or two a week at most, or they contribute findings from their day job to ACPO rather than dedicate a serious amount of time to it.
The whole point if ACPO is that they are members who are experts in their field due to their day job, I personally know 2 ACPO leads and their activities are more around chairing a meeting, sending out briefing notes, presenting at sector seminars etc.

[XDA]

Devil2575 said:

XDA said:

Have you seen the wage bill for ACPO? It's around the £1M mark.

The fact you repeat the same bks everytime this subject comes up, makes it easy to remember what you said

How many times have I commented on ACPO in the past?

The average salary is about 60k according to the Daily Wail which is hardly massive. That's about 16 people on the pay role. Is the figure of 1M supposed to impress? These days it doesn't actually go that far.

Maybe I have used the same arguments before, perhaps because they are still valid. You lot seem to trot out the same old ste ad nauseum.

I don't especially remember details of who said what exactly in previous exchanges but I will remember this one.

A £60k salary is about 3 times the national average. Bear in mind that those getting paid this amount aren't working at ACPO 40 hours a week. Some have full time well paid positions within the police service.

No, your arguments aren't valid given your clear lack of knowledge on the subject.

Perhaps this'll expand your knowledge:

http://www.theftprotect.co.uk/library/justice/The%...

Edited by XDA on Monday 27th May 11:55

[carinaman]

XDA said:

A £60k salary is about 3 times the national average. Bear in mind that those getting paid this amount aren't working at ACPO 40 hours a week. Some have full time well paid positions within the police service.

Yeah, but isn't the ACPO starting salary being cut to £19K?

[mph1977]

does anyone have break down of the acpo staffing and payroll ?

how many people are actually employed by ACPO ?,
how many are serving officers seconded by forces and paid by ACPO?,
how many are not seconded but are serving officers and paid by both ACPO and their force ?

[XDA]

mph1977 said:

does anyone have break down of the acpo staffing and payroll ?

how many people are actually employed by ACPO ?,
how many are serving officers seconded by forces and paid by ACPO?,
how many are not seconded but are serving officers and paid by both ACPO and their force ?

These are the latest annual accounts I can find. (2010/2011). Seems their financial accounts are very hard to get a copy of....

http://www.comply-promptly.org.uk/acpo/documents/m...

There are presently 334 members of ACPO

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/Membership.aspx

List of ACPO Directors

Sir Hugh Orde President ACPO

Chief Constable Sara Thornton Vice-President Thames Valley Police

Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy Vice-President Greater Manchester Police

Chief Constable Phil Gormley Vice-President Norfolk Constabulary

Assistant Chief Officer Nigel Brook ACPO Honorary Treasurer and senior police staff representative West Yorkshire Police

Chief Executive Peter Davies DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative CEOP

Deputy Chief Constable Derek Benson DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative Essex Police

Commander Julian Bennett Commanders' representative Metropolitan Police Service

ACPO Chief Executive Tom Flaherty Company secretary

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/DirectorsMembershi...

[mph1977]

XDA said:

mph1977 said:

does anyone have break down of the acpo staffing and payroll ?

how many people are actually employed by ACPO ?,
how many are serving officers seconded by forces and paid by ACPO?,
how many are not seconded but are serving officers and paid by both ACPO and their force ?

These are the latest annual accounts I can find. (2010/2011). Seems their financial accounts are very hard to get a copy of....

http://www.comply-promptly.org.uk/acpo/documents/m...

There are presently 334 members of ACPO

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/Membership.aspx

List of ACPO Directors

Sir Hugh Orde President ACPO

Chief Constable Sara Thornton Vice-President Thames Valley Police

Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy Vice-President Greater Manchester Police

Chief Constable Phil Gormley Vice-President Norfolk Constabulary

Assistant Chief Officer Nigel Brook ACPO Honorary Treasurer and senior police staff representative West Yorkshire Police

Chief Executive Peter Davies DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative CEOP

Deputy Chief Constable Derek Benson DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative Essex Police

Commander Julian Bennett Commanders' representative Metropolitan Police Service

ACPO Chief Executive Tom Flaherty Company secretary

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/DirectorsMembershi...

number of 'members of acpo' is irrelevant to the number on the payroll , it's about as relevant as the number of PH members is to the number of staff at PH towers or number of National trust members compared to the number of staff at HQ and sites...

334 fits in with the numbersof Chief Officer ranks across England and Wales if you include the ACCs as well the Deputy , acting and substantive chief constables/ commissioners ... do metPlod commanders come under ACPO or the Supts Assn ?

[XDA]

mph1977 said:

XDA said:

mph1977 said:

does anyone have break down of the acpo staffing and payroll ?

how many people are actually employed by ACPO ?,
how many are serving officers seconded by forces and paid by ACPO?,
how many are not seconded but are serving officers and paid by both ACPO and their force ?

These are the latest annual accounts I can find. (2010/2011). Seems their financial accounts are very hard to get a copy of....

http://www.comply-promptly.org.uk/acpo/documents/m...

There are presently 334 members of ACPO

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/Membership.aspx

List of ACPO Directors

Sir Hugh Orde President ACPO

Chief Constable Sara Thornton Vice-President Thames Valley Police

Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy Vice-President Greater Manchester Police

Chief Constable Phil Gormley Vice-President Norfolk Constabulary

Assistant Chief Officer Nigel Brook ACPO Honorary Treasurer and senior police staff representative West Yorkshire Police

Chief Executive Peter Davies DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative CEOP

Deputy Chief Constable Derek Benson DCCs', DACs',& ACCs' representative Essex Police

Commander Julian Bennett Commanders' representative Metropolitan Police Service

ACPO Chief Executive Tom Flaherty Company secretary

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/DirectorsMembershi...

number of 'members of acpo' is irrelevant to the number on the payroll , it's about as relevant as the number of PH members is to the number of staff at PH towers or number of National trust members compared to the number of staff at HQ and sites...

334 fits in with the numbersof Chief Officer ranks across England and Wales if you include the ACCs as well the Deputy , acting and substantive chief constables/ commissioners ... do metPlod commanders come under ACPO or the Supts Assn ?

Such information is very sketchy and difficult to get hold of for some reason....

However, I have found this little gem:

"A total of 72 different consultants / contractors were identified as being engaged off payroll between 1 April 2009 and 31 March 2012 at a total cost of just under £4.1m. Of the total 48.6% (35) were known to have been previously employed as police officers and 4% (3) were known to have been previously police staff. Of the 72 individuals identified, 30.5% (22) are known to be engaged via a company of some description.

Of the 72 individuals or companies identified, 19% (14) were found to have cost in excess of the £58,200 per annum for one or more of the three reporting years featured within this review. Five individuals were found to have costs in excess of £100,000, two of these with costs of over £175,000 within at least one financial year.

The review found there was no consistent process used to procure or engage individuals and/or companies. With the decentralized nature of the Business Area work, it appears a common practice for Business Area Leads to use local force HR and Procurement Departments to select individuals. Evidence was found that on occasions some engagements were made on the recommendation of an individual or individuals rather than through a formal selection or tendering process. Sometimes this was on the grounds of expediency and the urgent nature of pieces of work requiring development or completion, but this does not appear to have been the situation on all occasions. In a number of instances there is no auditable evidence of any selection process being undertaken suggesting non‐compliance with ACPO Financial Regulations.

Lack of consistency was also found in terms of the determination of rates of pay. While to some extent this will always be the case in terms of negotiations between the contractor and contractee, there are no guidelines for determining whether rates should be set by the hour, day, month, year or project. The review found rates ranging from £7.85 per hour up to £1,100 per day. Evidence was found where some rates were set as they were broadly equivalent to police officer rank pay at the time of the negotiation."

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/reports/2012/2...

So it seems like look after one another with very generous pay!

Suppose they've got to spend their "profit" somehow!

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

What a load of rubbish. Text book example of a false dichotomy, you either hate ACPO and SCPs or love them. You either believe that this is my view, in which case you're not that bright, or you're using a tired old tactic to try and score points.

What's not to like? A private company uses tax payer funded resources to profiteer - aside from the questionable approach to foreign governments to become the sole provider of those resources!

Daily Mail said:

Until now visa applicants could obtain these details by making what was known as a 'subject access request' to the police. The maximum charge for these requests was £10.
But according to the US Embassy, ACPO approached them and offered to provide their own criminal record certificates. These are now the only documents acceptable for visa applications.
Under the new system, applicants fill out an online form and receive a statement about whether or not they have a criminal record.
According to the National Police Improvement Agency, which runs the Police National Computer, ACPO is charged 60p for each search.

The allegation which is the title of this thread, is that ACPO is "an unaccountable Club - composed of senior policemen who have tended over the years to serve their own interests"
This from the former DPP. I find myself in complete agreement with this view after all the evidence I have seen reported over the years.

Daily Mail said:

The spending on an undisclosed number of apartments in the Westminster area is understood to be about £1.6million a year.
The money is taken directly from taxpayers' cash given to the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) by the Home Office to tackle the terrorist threat across Britain.
The funding – £33million last year – is supposed to be used to beef up regional police forces' anti-terrorism response and pay for crucial equipment and facilities.

Instead, ACPO's Terrorism & Allied Matters (TAM) committee, headed by Assistant Commissioner John Yates, has used millions of pounds from the budget to pay for flats.
Last night ACPO refused to disclose how many apartments it was paying for, or who was receiving the perk, but all are said to be well-appointed homes close to Scotland Yard.
ACPO insists they are 'occupied', but two well-placed sources told The Mail on Sunday that officers only occasionally stay in them.
Local estate agents say the cheapest two-bedroom flats in the area cost £400,000 to buy or at least £300 a week to rent. But with the officers requiring a 'secure location' the flats are said to cost substantially more.

It is only fair to say that at the time when this was taking place, our MPs were behaving in similar fashion over their 2nd homes and expenses - but that does not excuse such shameful behaviour.

Others have far more concerns!
http://www.theftprotect.co.uk/library/justice/The%...

Thin Blue Line blog said:

Its growth has taken place without any parliamentary debate and without being subject to public scrutiny, and its decisions are largely taken in secret.
ACPO has also been involved in blatant party politics, demonstrating a shocking political bias toward the previous Nu Labour administration, enforced "multi-cultural and diversity" programmes amongst police forces across the country — all funded of course by the British taxpayer.

ABOUT THIS REPORT
Over the pages that follow, we have collected many of the news items, articles and summaries written about ACPO, either from public media sources or from the archives of the Thin Blue Line site. http://theinbluelineuk.blogspot.com

[XCP]

My only surprise is that anyone finds this newsworthy. Lots of very senior officers have been feathering their own nests in various ways for decades. I daresay the Crime Commissioners will be joining them soon.
Somebody somewhere is planning their first conference I'll bet.

[Mill Wheel]

XCP said:

My only surprise is that anyone finds this newsworthy. Lots of very senior officers have been feathering their own nests in various ways for decades. I daresay the Crime Commissioners will be joining them soon.
Somebody somewhere is planning their first conference I'll bet.

It is fascinating to see how many Chief Constables or very senior ranks have been sacked, prosecuted, investigated or committed suicide... but not necessarily in that order!

A google reveals a surprising number!

[Who me ?]

MW- You might like to look at this one,where Cap't Pugwash has surfaced .
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[XCP]

Mill Wheel said:

It is fascinating to see how many Chief Constables or very senior ranks have been sacked, prosecuted, investigated or committed suicide... but not necessarily in that order!

A google reveals a surprising number!

To be fair though there isn't a PC in the land who hasn't been investigated! In a way I am pleased these cases are coming to light. They've always been there but in the 'good old days' they were swept under the carpet much more.

[XDA]

[quote=Who me ?]MW- You might like to look at this one,where Cap't Pugwash has surfaced .
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
[/quote]

Odd that he's missed this discussion!

[Who me ?]

XDA said:

[quote=Who me ?]MW- You might like to look at this one,where Cap't Pugwash has surfaced .
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Odd that he's missed this discussion!

Who - Cap't pugwash ?