Did I deserve to get banned?
Discussion
Hi -
As of the 22 October I will not be allowed to drive for 12 months. I was charged with Dangerous Driving and fined £400.
The event that led up to the ban occured way back in May. I was driving my parther's MX5 to get it MoT'd. I was in no hurry and was enjoying the drive.
I came up behind a new driver (P plate) and she was extremely hesitant, braking excessively for bends, and braking whenever she saw oncoming cars. I didn't tailgate her, or drive aggressively (as confirmed twice in her statement to the police). I decided to overtake at the next safe opportunity, as we were on a fast open NSL road, and she was doing between 30 and 45 and driving pooly.
For reasons that I'll never quite work out, be it complacency, over confidence or just downright stupidity I overtook when I though the road was clear. I was looking as far down the road as I could, and I saw no cars, and could see far enough to easily overtake safely. I'd dropped back and had then built up speed to overtake swiftly. As she braked for a gentle bend in the road I overtook. The bend masked an oncoming car, and I'd actually pulled out moments before I had total visibility. I'd overtaken there before, but slightly further down the road. The driver braking was the catalyst for me pulling out (I'm not blaming her, just explaining my actions)
Faced with a car coming towards me (and him the same) I made the decision (rightly or wrongly) to complete the overtake (slamming on the brakes could have meant a 'head-on'). As I swerved back onto my side of the road the rear of my car broke free, oversteered to the right, then left, then back to the right, clipping a grass bank and flipping my car over.
The whole incident is still terrifyingly etched on my mind. A split second decision, a "momentary lapse of judgement" as the magistrate refered to it - that I'd discover 5 months later would have a devistating impact on the lives on my partner, and my (now 10 month old) child.
I caused no damage to anything other than my own car have never denied it was my fault, and was cooperative and honest with the police. I was interviewed and told that I could face a Dangerous Driving charge, a Careless Driving charge, or be just be cautionned
…and that was that until 5 months later when I recieved the summons.
Now having seen so many reports of drivers mowing down kids, and getting off scott free I feel a tremendous sense of misjustice.
So my question is – Would you feel aggrieved if you were in my position, or do I deserve what I got?
Dan
As of the 22 October I will not be allowed to drive for 12 months. I was charged with Dangerous Driving and fined £400.
The event that led up to the ban occured way back in May. I was driving my parther's MX5 to get it MoT'd. I was in no hurry and was enjoying the drive.
I came up behind a new driver (P plate) and she was extremely hesitant, braking excessively for bends, and braking whenever she saw oncoming cars. I didn't tailgate her, or drive aggressively (as confirmed twice in her statement to the police). I decided to overtake at the next safe opportunity, as we were on a fast open NSL road, and she was doing between 30 and 45 and driving pooly.
For reasons that I'll never quite work out, be it complacency, over confidence or just downright stupidity I overtook when I though the road was clear. I was looking as far down the road as I could, and I saw no cars, and could see far enough to easily overtake safely. I'd dropped back and had then built up speed to overtake swiftly. As she braked for a gentle bend in the road I overtook. The bend masked an oncoming car, and I'd actually pulled out moments before I had total visibility. I'd overtaken there before, but slightly further down the road. The driver braking was the catalyst for me pulling out (I'm not blaming her, just explaining my actions)
Faced with a car coming towards me (and him the same) I made the decision (rightly or wrongly) to complete the overtake (slamming on the brakes could have meant a 'head-on'). As I swerved back onto my side of the road the rear of my car broke free, oversteered to the right, then left, then back to the right, clipping a grass bank and flipping my car over.
The whole incident is still terrifyingly etched on my mind. A split second decision, a "momentary lapse of judgement" as the magistrate refered to it - that I'd discover 5 months later would have a devistating impact on the lives on my partner, and my (now 10 month old) child.
I caused no damage to anything other than my own car have never denied it was my fault, and was cooperative and honest with the police. I was interviewed and told that I could face a Dangerous Driving charge, a Careless Driving charge, or be just be cautionned
…and that was that until 5 months later when I recieved the summons.
Now having seen so many reports of drivers mowing down kids, and getting off scott free I feel a tremendous sense of misjustice.
So my question is – Would you feel aggrieved if you were in my position, or do I deserve what I got?
Dan
Id say you got off lightly: you could have killed yourself or worse, someone else.
Its easy for us to sit here in judgement, but without knowing the exact circumstances, we cant be sure whether you "got what you deserved" or not.
Id go so far to say as you just got it wrong that day, something which all of us are more than capable of doing, no matter how clever we may believe ourselves to be at driving.
Youve been lucky as youve come out of it in one piece, and at least youre not being used as a statistic in some camera partnerships campaign.
Take it easy and learn from it.
Regards Deltaf.
Its easy for us to sit here in judgement, but without knowing the exact circumstances, we cant be sure whether you "got what you deserved" or not.
Id go so far to say as you just got it wrong that day, something which all of us are more than capable of doing, no matter how clever we may believe ourselves to be at driving.
Youve been lucky as youve come out of it in one piece, and at least youre not being used as a statistic in some camera partnerships campaign.
Take it easy and learn from it.
Regards Deltaf.
Like you, I think I'd be a "little" aggrieved, we have all been taken to the ends of our tethers by inept drivers. But, would have to admit to myself that my overtaking manouvre was down to me.
12 Months with no actual accident with another car though does seem harsh I thought! 6 months? yes maybe. The worse thing though is when you come to re: insure your car, with a "dangerous driving" it's going to be steep, that's the real punishment. Never had the pleasure myself but know of someone who has, I think it took him 10 yrs to get it back to normal. Good Luck anyway.
Incidently, had one myself a few months ago. 30 mph limit through a village. Dear old mr & mrs white hair pulled out from the left forcing me to brake heavily.
Followed them at 15-20 mph for some distance, speed erratic, wandering over the white line, braking for nothing, 2nd gear all the way.
Finally after leaving the village on road with no pavements, just hedges, I decided to overtake.
the S...... F..... nearly rammed me into the hedges on the right hand side!
I'm not age-ist but when you can't drive a straight line it's time to give up!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Thursday 4th November 00:02
12 Months with no actual accident with another car though does seem harsh I thought! 6 months? yes maybe. The worse thing though is when you come to re: insure your car, with a "dangerous driving" it's going to be steep, that's the real punishment. Never had the pleasure myself but know of someone who has, I think it took him 10 yrs to get it back to normal. Good Luck anyway.
Incidently, had one myself a few months ago. 30 mph limit through a village. Dear old mr & mrs white hair pulled out from the left forcing me to brake heavily.
Followed them at 15-20 mph for some distance, speed erratic, wandering over the white line, braking for nothing, 2nd gear all the way.
Finally after leaving the village on road with no pavements, just hedges, I decided to overtake.
the S...... F..... nearly rammed me into the hedges on the right hand side!
I'm not age-ist but when you can't drive a straight line it's time to give up!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Thursday 4th November 00:02
From what you've written it sounds as though (and it seems to be corroborated by your statement) you have basically 'got away with it'. To be honest, I can't help but think that the overtake was commited to with a degree of calculated risk involved - only in this instance the calculation didn't work. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm happy that a PHer' is still here to tell the tale; as I read it, it sounds like a genuine, bona-fide 'mistake'. Hell, We're all human and "it is human to err" isn't it?
Just sometimes it can cost lives, in this case yes,
you live to tell the tale and will probably be made to learn the hard way.
Not as hard as it could have been though! Stay safe man.
cheers,
Steve ]
>> Edited by TRACKDEMON on Thursday 4th November 10:38
Just sometimes it can cost lives, in this case yes,
you live to tell the tale and will probably be made to learn the hard way.
Not as hard as it could have been though! Stay safe man.
cheers,
Steve ]
>> Edited by TRACKDEMON on Thursday 4th November 10:38
Back in the days before driving a car was worse than child murder, a newly P plated friend rolled his coupé on a tight bend late on a Saturday night (not dd) and we ended up picking his toolkit piece by piece outta the farmer's field for the best part of the next afternoon. Car written off and matey shaken but not stirred. The BiB took no action as they couldn't trace the fox that he claimed ran out in front of him to be a witness. Anyway from the original post I'd say 12 months was harsh. If the consequences look ott are you thinking of an appeal? Nonegreen is right, the sandalistas are taking things too far, time for a change in the grinning jackanape region or last one out please close the garage door.
I think you were lucky. Lucky to not kill anyone and lucky that all you got was a 12 month ban.
The proper way to overtake is to wait until you judge that the road is about to straighten, select a progressive gear, slowly move up on the vehicle in front. Move out to the other lane for a look. Then decide, having a full picture of the road in front of you, whether the overtake is 'on'.
If the overtake is not on, you drift back to the left and resume a safe following distance.
If the overtake is on, then you give it brisk acceleration to get past and then smoothly move back over.
I'm sure you know it now, but coming up behind another vehicle as speed is just plain dangerous.
Glad you are OK, though.
Consider some additional driver training.
The proper way to overtake is to wait until you judge that the road is about to straighten, select a progressive gear, slowly move up on the vehicle in front. Move out to the other lane for a look. Then decide, having a full picture of the road in front of you, whether the overtake is 'on'.
If the overtake is not on, you drift back to the left and resume a safe following distance.
If the overtake is on, then you give it brisk acceleration to get past and then smoothly move back over.
I'm sure you know it now, but coming up behind another vehicle as speed is just plain dangerous.
Glad you are OK, though.
Consider some additional driver training.
You're damn lucky to get away with a ban, I'd have had you locked up!. Overtaking? in a 'sports car' have you no regard for the safety of others?
You were obviously speeding and totally unaware of the swathes of destruction left in your path. I have it on good authority that local surgeries in that area were inundated with small children suffering nosebleeds and elderly people having panic attacks. Hanging's too good for the likes of you, it's a good kick up the arse you're needing!
don't take chances
You were obviously speeding and totally unaware of the swathes of destruction left in your path. I have it on good authority that local surgeries in that area were inundated with small children suffering nosebleeds and elderly people having panic attacks. Hanging's too good for the likes of you, it's a good kick up the arse you're needing!
don't take chances
Apache said:
You're damn lucky to get away with a ban, I'd have had you locked up!. Overtaking? in a 'sports car' have you no regard for the safety of others?
You were obviously speeding and totally unaware of the swathes of destruction left in your path. I have it on good authority that local surgeries in that area were inundated with small children suffering nosebleeds and elderly people having panic attacks. Hanging's too good for the likes of you, it's a good kick up the arse you're needing!
don't take chances
A dangerous overtake is a dangerous overtake. This is exactly the type of dangerous dricing that Plod should be detecting and prosecuting. Let's not kid ourselves that this type of driving is appropriate.
Another perfect driver I suppose. I'm big enough to admit doing the same manouvre, although I do claim many years experience of driving anything anywhere and always drive with an escape route in the back of my mind, bikes give you this self preservation instinct.
I think our friend learned that his skills need sharpening up and scared himself into the bargain. Good, and good no one was hurt. No need to come over all pious mate.
I think our friend learned that his skills need sharpening up and scared himself into the bargain. Good, and good no one was hurt. No need to come over all pious mate.
Apache said:
Another perfect driver I suppose. I'm big enough to admit doing the same manouvre, although I do claim many years experience of driving anything anywhere and always drive with an escape route in the back of my mind, bikes give you this self preservation instinct.
I think our friend learned that his skills need sharpening up and scared himself into the bargain. Good, and good no one was hurt. No need to come over all pious mate.
Sorry, didn't mean to. It just gets me mad when we try to excuse bad driving. It is driving like this that does and will cost lives eventually.
Sorry, just have a thing about driver education and making sure the BiB target the behaviour that is most likely going to end in tears, rather than nicking decent people for exceeding a speed limit in total safety.
Hi Dan,
Phew. I'm glad you're still with us. That's a lot of basic mistakes in a short period of time.
1) The rushing and swerving approach to overtaking is inherently risky.
2) You failed to observe an oncoming vehicle.
3) You had no escape route, nor an escape plan. (The escape plan in good overtaking is to simply slide back to the left - see CA's post about technique at 00:52)
4) Then you lost control through excessive steering in combination with power. (I presume).
But I don't see how banning you is going to make you safer. The court should have ordered you to go on a week's training. (Not that courts do this, or recognise the benefit)
More globally, I'm very concerned that many enthusiastic drivers can get into the same sort of trouble because basic driver training simply does not give out the tools required to guarantee not to make these sorts of basic mistakes.
We're simply not taught proper overtaking unless we're in the emergency services or seek out higher levels of driver training for ourselves.
I blame society.
Oh, and I blame speed cameras - if we didn't have speed cameras, then maybe we'd have managed to encourage you into further training before this happened.
Phew. I'm glad you're still with us. That's a lot of basic mistakes in a short period of time.
1) The rushing and swerving approach to overtaking is inherently risky.
2) You failed to observe an oncoming vehicle.
3) You had no escape route, nor an escape plan. (The escape plan in good overtaking is to simply slide back to the left - see CA's post about technique at 00:52)
4) Then you lost control through excessive steering in combination with power. (I presume).
But I don't see how banning you is going to make you safer. The court should have ordered you to go on a week's training. (Not that courts do this, or recognise the benefit)
More globally, I'm very concerned that many enthusiastic drivers can get into the same sort of trouble because basic driver training simply does not give out the tools required to guarantee not to make these sorts of basic mistakes.
We're simply not taught proper overtaking unless we're in the emergency services or seek out higher levels of driver training for ourselves.
I blame society.
Oh, and I blame speed cameras - if we didn't have speed cameras, then maybe we'd have managed to encourage you into further training before this happened.
alrite dan, ain't heard from you in a while (it's dave, from cruiseboard.co.uk)
sounds harsh to be banned for dangerous driving, careless probably - as you did stack it, but dangerous... hm...
I don't suppose (playing devil's advocate here) that you mentioned your employment at the time of arrest or questioning? or if it was raised in court?. The reason I ask is purely because they may have made a thing about it as you are linked to a - in layman's terms - 'boyracer' magazine.
>> Edited by CB-Dave on Thursday 4th November 01:58
sounds harsh to be banned for dangerous driving, careless probably - as you did stack it, but dangerous... hm...
I don't suppose (playing devil's advocate here) that you mentioned your employment at the time of arrest or questioning? or if it was raised in court?. The reason I ask is purely because they may have made a thing about it as you are linked to a - in layman's terms - 'boyracer' magazine.
>> Edited by CB-Dave on Thursday 4th November 01:58
Never thought i'd be agreeing with you ca!Thinking about this some more, imagining the perspective of a driver who has read the Highway Code and passed a driving test with standard instruction, I can't really find more than one human mistake that Dan made.
Many drivers think it's obvious that accelerating before pulling out is "logically" the fastest way to overtake and therefore the safest. Neither the Highway Code nor standard driver training (nor other official advice as far as I know) warn against this technique.
Of course, this technique sets you up for making an observation mistake, and that's the critical mistake that Dan made. He didn't see the other vehicle.
Having not seen the other vehicle we're now thrust into the middle of a full blown emergency and the result is going to involve a degree of luck. Dan's emergency steering made matters worse, perhaps, but once you're in an emergency you just do your best. Dan was both lucky (no one hurt, only one vehicle damaged) and unlucky (he lost control).
So it boils down to one observation error, exacerbated by lack of training and lack of offical advice about overtaking technique.
Despite the highly dangerous results, there's no evidence here that Dan's driving was reckless - he didn't see another vehicle and think: "I'm going anyway". He simply failed to see another vehicle and everything else followed.
Still it's a cheap lesson with no one hurt, and I bet he never makes the same mistake again.
Many drivers think it's obvious that accelerating before pulling out is "logically" the fastest way to overtake and therefore the safest. Neither the Highway Code nor standard driver training (nor other official advice as far as I know) warn against this technique.
Of course, this technique sets you up for making an observation mistake, and that's the critical mistake that Dan made. He didn't see the other vehicle.
Having not seen the other vehicle we're now thrust into the middle of a full blown emergency and the result is going to involve a degree of luck. Dan's emergency steering made matters worse, perhaps, but once you're in an emergency you just do your best. Dan was both lucky (no one hurt, only one vehicle damaged) and unlucky (he lost control).
So it boils down to one observation error, exacerbated by lack of training and lack of offical advice about overtaking technique.
Despite the highly dangerous results, there's no evidence here that Dan's driving was reckless - he didn't see another vehicle and think: "I'm going anyway". He simply failed to see another vehicle and everything else followed.
Still it's a cheap lesson with no one hurt, and I bet he never makes the same mistake again.
Have you ever been taught to overtake properly?
From what you have posted it would appear you have not!
Not surprising though as nobody is taught to do it. They learn from watching others, mainly their parents and friends.
When you get your licence back. Treat yourself to a proper advanced road driving course where you will be shown how to plan and execute overtakes properly, carefully and safely every time.
As stated before, you are lucky to be here to type about your mistake!
Perhaps you have been harshly treated by the court but it will make you think about the consequences of your actions in future!
From what you have posted it would appear you have not!
Not surprising though as nobody is taught to do it. They learn from watching others, mainly their parents and friends.
When you get your licence back. Treat yourself to a proper advanced road driving course where you will be shown how to plan and execute overtakes properly, carefully and safely every time.
As stated before, you are lucky to be here to type about your mistake!
Perhaps you have been harshly treated by the court but it will make you think about the consequences of your actions in future!
I am staggered that the flagrant misuse of the law by the sandalist run state. Has not resulted in massive backlash against the judicial system and the death sponsors who masquarade as safety partnerships.
The offense was clearly no more than due care, the fact that the guy got banned is plain crazy. We are truly heading back to the middle ages, the motorist being the modern day equivalent of a witch. How many more innocent people have to have their lives messed up before we take up arms against theis madness?
The offense was clearly no more than due care, the fact that the guy got banned is plain crazy. We are truly heading back to the middle ages, the motorist being the modern day equivalent of a witch. How many more innocent people have to have their lives messed up before we take up arms against theis madness?
Careless Driving
Your driving is measured against the standard of driving expected from a reasonable, prudent, competent driver. For you to be found guilty, the prosecution convince the court that your driving fell below that standard. Prudent simply means cautious and showing forethought. The court will apply the standard of the hypothetical careful driver to the facts in the case, and cannot make any allowance for things such as your inexperience or a momentary lack of judgement. However, the court does have to consider all the circumstances of the case. This is because what might be careless in one situation might not be in different circumstances, for example in different weather or traffic conditions. In some cases the prosecution may not have actual evidence of carelessness, but the facts of the case are so overwhelming the only logical conclusion is that the driver was careless: for example, where a car mounts a verge and crashes into a telegraph pole three feet onto the verge. If the driver can offer no explanation to the court as to why the accident happened, the court will very likely conclude that the crash must have been caused by the fault of the driver. If, however an explanation is offered, it is the prosecution who must then prove that the explanation is not true. The driver is entitled to the benefit of the doubt if the prosecution cannot do so. If the driving breaks the Highway Code, then this will tend to suggest that the driving fell below the required standard.
Dangerous Driving
In order for you to be found guilty of this offence, the prosecution must convince the court: a) that the way in which you drove fell far below what could be expected of a competent and careful driver; and b) that it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in the way you did would be dangerous. What is dangerous? Dangerous means a danger of physical injury (however minor) or serious damage to property. The prosecution do not have to prove that anyone was actually injured, that damage actually took place or felt in danger. The driving is judged from an objective view. In other words, what was going on in the driver’s mind is not relevant to the decision as to whether his or her driving fell far below the standard expected of the hypothetical competent and careful driver. The offence may be committed by simply driving in a dangerous way The offence can also relate to a vehicle in a dangerous condition. The offence can be committed by a danger relating to the driver, rather than the vehicle’s condition or the way in which the driver actually drives.
Careless Driving - Definetely.
Dangerous - Would most people not have overtaken at that location? Would an observer conclude it was dangerous?
Overtaking into a blind bend is the bit that probably tips the dangerous driving areana. (whether you realised it was blind at the time doesn't matter).
I can understand you my feel it a little harsh as it was a geninue error by yourself. However, a lapse of concentration is not migating circumstances. The test is what would the hypothetical average driver do in the same circumstances.
With the increase in camera's, reduction in BiB and the corresponding fall in driver standards I suspect we will see more people charged in CD and DD
Once convicted min. 12 month ban is the lightest sentenance - probably a reflection on no other injuries. The mag could have given you 6 months inside or referred it to the Crown for 2 yrs inside.
>> Edited by bluepolarbear on Thursday 4th November 08:04
Your driving is measured against the standard of driving expected from a reasonable, prudent, competent driver. For you to be found guilty, the prosecution convince the court that your driving fell below that standard. Prudent simply means cautious and showing forethought. The court will apply the standard of the hypothetical careful driver to the facts in the case, and cannot make any allowance for things such as your inexperience or a momentary lack of judgement. However, the court does have to consider all the circumstances of the case. This is because what might be careless in one situation might not be in different circumstances, for example in different weather or traffic conditions. In some cases the prosecution may not have actual evidence of carelessness, but the facts of the case are so overwhelming the only logical conclusion is that the driver was careless: for example, where a car mounts a verge and crashes into a telegraph pole three feet onto the verge. If the driver can offer no explanation to the court as to why the accident happened, the court will very likely conclude that the crash must have been caused by the fault of the driver. If, however an explanation is offered, it is the prosecution who must then prove that the explanation is not true. The driver is entitled to the benefit of the doubt if the prosecution cannot do so. If the driving breaks the Highway Code, then this will tend to suggest that the driving fell below the required standard.
Dangerous Driving
In order for you to be found guilty of this offence, the prosecution must convince the court: a) that the way in which you drove fell far below what could be expected of a competent and careful driver; and b) that it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in the way you did would be dangerous. What is dangerous? Dangerous means a danger of physical injury (however minor) or serious damage to property. The prosecution do not have to prove that anyone was actually injured, that damage actually took place or felt in danger. The driving is judged from an objective view. In other words, what was going on in the driver’s mind is not relevant to the decision as to whether his or her driving fell far below the standard expected of the hypothetical competent and careful driver. The offence may be committed by simply driving in a dangerous way The offence can also relate to a vehicle in a dangerous condition. The offence can be committed by a danger relating to the driver, rather than the vehicle’s condition or the way in which the driver actually drives.
Careless Driving - Definetely.
Dangerous - Would most people not have overtaken at that location? Would an observer conclude it was dangerous?
Overtaking into a blind bend is the bit that probably tips the dangerous driving areana. (whether you realised it was blind at the time doesn't matter).
I can understand you my feel it a little harsh as it was a geninue error by yourself. However, a lapse of concentration is not migating circumstances. The test is what would the hypothetical average driver do in the same circumstances.
With the increase in camera's, reduction in BiB and the corresponding fall in driver standards I suspect we will see more people charged in CD and DD
Once convicted min. 12 month ban is the lightest sentenance - probably a reflection on no other injuries. The mag could have given you 6 months inside or referred it to the Crown for 2 yrs inside.
>> Edited by bluepolarbear on Thursday 4th November 08:04
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