low power overtaking
Discussion
-DeaDLocK- said:
By following your guide, I will be aware of the full circumstances of what is or may be approaching into view on the other side of the road, as opposed to a snapshot decision based on a cursory glance after a corner (albeit an experienced glance to a road I know well). Even if this means that the amount of time I spend on the other side is longer, it is better, because it is ultimately safer.
Exactly.
-DeaDLocK- said:
Thanks!
I'm dead chuffed that I've been able to help. Little snippets of solid information are very valuable to safe driving.
Personally I agree with all the previous advice. What I would say is that I the roadcraft technique of following at a 2 second interval whilst observing and preparing for the overtake followed by moving into the "overtaking zone" i.e a 1 second following gap is great advice. I also use the pull out and THEN accelerate technique. However i do also accelerate as I pull out traffic is light and I KNOW the overtake is 100%. This is generally only possible when following a single car on a very straight road.
Most overtaking relies on very good observation followed by swift acceleration in a car capable of the manouvre.
Most bad overtakes are under powered cars or pi55 poor judgement or plain recklessness.....
Keep it safe
people!
Most overtaking relies on very good observation followed by swift acceleration in a car capable of the manouvre.
Most bad overtakes are under powered cars or pi55 poor judgement or plain recklessness.....
Keep it safe
people!rviant said:
That does not account for the sad gits that when you try and overtake them put their foot down and close the gap. happened last night to me he is doing 50 nice gap in front of him. i try and overtake and he speeds up making it unsafe and I had to cut in in front of him T R
>> Edited by rviant on Friday 5th November 13:08
I'm sure this is a legacy of the Speed Kills campaign and the general dumbing down of drivers. In a lot of people's minds Speed Kills = No Speeding = No Overtaking.
This is how the government sees it too - there are plenty of roads where overtaking has been prevented with islands, etc.
Also how many people have been flashed by drivers on the other side of the road after a perfectly safe around the limit overtake?
Re: passing the point of commitment before pulling out, that reminds me of an amusing story.
Years ago, I got into conversation with a chap who worked for (or ran - I can't remember which) a Renault dealership in Essex.
He commented that they'd usually sell a lot of R5 turbos to successful young girlies (his words, not mine) and get them back in for front-end repairs within a few weeks.
The general consensus in the dealership, after asking the nature of the accidents, was that these customers were earning decent money and wanted a flash car, but wanted to keep it small. Therefore plumped for the R5 and bought the turbo simply because it was "top of the range".
Anyway, the first time they'd go out for a bit of a spirited drive, they'd spot a gap, floor it & pull out. Nothing much would happen and the gap would disappear, at which point they'd abort the manoever and pull back in...
...just as the turbo would be spooling up and launch them straight into the back of the car they'd originally intended to overtake!
Years ago, I got into conversation with a chap who worked for (or ran - I can't remember which) a Renault dealership in Essex.
He commented that they'd usually sell a lot of R5 turbos to successful young girlies (his words, not mine) and get them back in for front-end repairs within a few weeks.
The general consensus in the dealership, after asking the nature of the accidents, was that these customers were earning decent money and wanted a flash car, but wanted to keep it small. Therefore plumped for the R5 and bought the turbo simply because it was "top of the range".
Anyway, the first time they'd go out for a bit of a spirited drive, they'd spot a gap, floor it & pull out. Nothing much would happen and the gap would disappear, at which point they'd abort the manoever and pull back in...
...just as the turbo would be spooling up and launch them straight into the back of the car they'd originally intended to overtake!
I have always used the elastic band technique
Ie Build up speed prior to the overtake, however this requires a BIG gap much bigger than most people imagine they need. This also gives you opportunity to use road positioning better as you can see round cars/lorries much easier from a distance.
To take this one logical step on, try passing a lorry at the distance most drivers drive at. It's impossible or Dangerous simple as that.
I tend to find I overtake from a distance thats equivalent to 3-4 numpty cars ditance following the "obstruction to progress".
This technique massively reduces your TED (Time exposed to danger) though I admit terminal speed is often in excess of what might be deemed safe or necessary, however you can always maintian a safe speed as you pass which makes getting in that much easier.
This technique also allows you for error corrcetion, ie if you have to drive flat out to pass you have no safety margin. If you are only maintaining a speed you have a choice of faster or slower.
Just my 2p worth but I find I am naturally overtaking all day long without stress & always always erring on the side of caution.
Ie Build up speed prior to the overtake, however this requires a BIG gap much bigger than most people imagine they need. This also gives you opportunity to use road positioning better as you can see round cars/lorries much easier from a distance.
To take this one logical step on, try passing a lorry at the distance most drivers drive at. It's impossible or Dangerous simple as that.
I tend to find I overtake from a distance thats equivalent to 3-4 numpty cars ditance following the "obstruction to progress".
This technique massively reduces your TED (Time exposed to danger) though I admit terminal speed is often in excess of what might be deemed safe or necessary, however you can always maintian a safe speed as you pass which makes getting in that much easier.
This technique also allows you for error corrcetion, ie if you have to drive flat out to pass you have no safety margin. If you are only maintaining a speed you have a choice of faster or slower.
Just my 2p worth but I find I am naturally overtaking all day long without stress & always always erring on the side of caution.
cptsideways said:
I have always used the elastic band technique
I've read your post a few times and I'm not clear that you're avoiding "Dan's mistake".
The points about observation are well made. There are many techniques for developing observation in preparation for overtaking - most involve positioning, and most are in Roadcraft.
One thing I have experienced is problems when speed differentials become large.
They do not realise that since they looked in their mirror soooo long ago and then decided to overtake (or change lane) their maneuver occurs as I am alongside and I tend to get squeezed.
This probably happens with the lunge technique, but as my speed is mostly double that of everyone else’s, I don't see it as lunging
They do not realise that since they looked in their mirror soooo long ago and then decided to overtake (or change lane) their maneuver occurs as I am alongside and I tend to get squeezed.
This probably happens with the lunge technique, but as my speed is mostly double that of everyone else’s, I don't see it as lunging
This *almost* the IAM taught method.
IAM/Roadcraft method.
a) Follow at a safe distance.
b) When it looks like an overtake may be possible shortly move up to the "following distance" - sacrificing the two second safety rule temporarily.
c) If safe to do so move out to the right to take a good look.
d) If NOT on simply move back left - at the same speed and gear and perhaps allow the two second safety distance to grow back if traffic does not allow another attempt.
e) IF OVERTAKE is ON. Select best gear for acceleration and speed up briskly to overtake.
f) Check rear-view mirror to ensure it is safe to pull back over left.
g) Pull back over left.
The *only* difference is the sequence of when to select the best gear. This is done in the above AFTER moving out right to check the overtake is on BECAUSE if it isn't you can move back left without the need to brake/change gear back/having the engine at high revs for no reason.
In practice in a sports car it is likely that the methods will be identical as you will already be in a flexible, potent gear...
IAM/Roadcraft method.
a) Follow at a safe distance.
b) When it looks like an overtake may be possible shortly move up to the "following distance" - sacrificing the two second safety rule temporarily.
c) If safe to do so move out to the right to take a good look.
d) If NOT on simply move back left - at the same speed and gear and perhaps allow the two second safety distance to grow back if traffic does not allow another attempt.
e) IF OVERTAKE is ON. Select best gear for acceleration and speed up briskly to overtake.
f) Check rear-view mirror to ensure it is safe to pull back over left.
g) Pull back over left.
The *only* difference is the sequence of when to select the best gear. This is done in the above AFTER moving out right to check the overtake is on BECAUSE if it isn't you can move back left without the need to brake/change gear back/having the engine at high revs for no reason.
In practice in a sports car it is likely that the methods will be identical as you will already be in a flexible, potent gear...
safespeed said:
cptsideways said:
I have always used the elastic band technique
I've read your post a few times and I'm not clear that you're avoiding "Dan's mistake".
The points about observation are well made. There are many techniques for developing observation in preparation for overtaking - most involve positioning, and most are in Roadcraft.
I know what you mean, but the big gap is the key, it gives you time so your not rushed into an instant yes or no decision & you always have somewhere to go should it not pan out. Or your passed so quickly its not a problem.
I find the Elastic band technique (comes from driving underpowered cars) teaches you better decision making especially with the big gap. Using this technique with a small gap & reduced visibility is probably lethal I quite agree.
One thing I always notice, very very few people I have met & passengered in their car have ever been taught how to overtake properly or taken training to do so. If they are keen overtakers it's been learning by trail & often error. It reminds me of the day my friend Emma drove me back from Cornwall. We sat behind a tractor for what must have been five miles. I patiently sat there saying nothing just to see what she'd do. And she did nothing at all just sat there at the obligotory 22mph tractor speed 10ft off its PTO. It then transpired she thought she was'nt allowed to overtake as she'd never been taught to do so. Laugh you may but maybe a sensible thing if you think about it.
>> Edited by cptsideways on Friday 5th November 17:45
evocator said:
One thing I have experienced is problems when speed differentials become large.
They do not realise that since they looked in their mirror soooo long ago and then decided to overtake (or change lane) their maneuver occurs as I am alongside and I tend to get squeezed.
This probably happens with the lunge technique, but as my speed is mostly double that of everyone else?s, I don't see it as lunging
If speed differentials become too large you're very vulnerable.
Take an extreme example - there's tractor ahead at 25mph with 6 cars behind. We can see it's clear to overtake the lot.
If we do it at 40mph (i.e. +15mph) or so, we'll have time to react if one of the cars starts to pull out to make his own overtake (and especially so with critical observation of EACH of the cars).
If we go blasting past the lot at 100mph and one of them pulls out, we're toast. There's simply no escape.
I always try to keep my speed differential below 30mph in normal circumstances. I might make a bit of an exception if there's a single vehicle and absolutely no visible reason for him to pull out.
cptsideways said:
I have always used the elastic band technique
I've read your post a few times and I'm not clear that you're avoiding "Dan's mistake".
The points about observation are well made. There are many techniques for developing observation in preparation for overtaking - most involve positioning, and most are in Roadcraft.
I know what you mean, but the big gap is the key, it gives you time so your not rushed into an instant yes or no decision & you always have somewhere to go should it not pan out. Or your passed so quickly its not a problem.
I find the Elastic band technique (comes from driving underpowered cars) teaches you better decision making especially with the big gap. Using this technique with a small gap & reduced visibility is probably lethal I quite agree.
I still don't see the bit in your post that many here agree is critically important. Exactly where are you when you commit to the overtake?
safespeed said:
Thanks Paul, I was just going to ask what the correct method was.
Now, what about overtaking method in a high-powered car??
This is my normal technique in a high powered vehicle.
1) Follow at about 0.75 to 1 seconds. Select the best gear.
2) When clear pull out to the right for a good look.
3) If clear, commit to the overtake and accelerate briskly.
4) Continue to accelerate past and move back smoothly.
5) If there's oncoming traffic I count the interval between fully returning to the left and the oncomer passing. This is a judgement calibration check. Anything under 2 seconds is dodgy.
The following distance is more variable in a high powered vehicle. I might move up to 0.5 seconds immediately before I anticipate a good opportunity, but would drop back quite a bit during periods of "no go".
Paul
Why do you need to be closer to the vehicle in front in a high powered vehicle rather than a low powered vehicle?
Just curious....
ca092003 said:
leosayer said:
Thanks Paul, I was just going to ask what the correct method was.
Now, what about overtaking method in a high-powered car??
This is my normal technique in a high powered vehicle.
1) Follow at about 0.75 to 1 seconds. Select the best gear.
2) When clear pull out to the right for a good look.
3) If clear, commit to the overtake and accelerate briskly.
4) Continue to accelerate past and move back smoothly.
5) If there's oncoming traffic I count the interval between fully returning to the left and the oncomer passing. This is a judgement calibration check. Anything under 2 seconds is dodgy.
The following distance is more variable in a high powered vehicle. I might move up to 0.5 seconds immediately before I anticipate a good opportunity, but would drop back quite a bit during periods of "no go".
Paul
Why do you need to be closer to the vehicle in front in a high powered vehicle rather than a low powered vehicle?
Just curious....
I think there are three basic reasons, the first is becasue you can - there are more options for moving around behind when you're developing your view and planning your overtake. The second is to give a little more time to build up speed before the point of commitment in the low powered vehicle. The third is to enable snappier overtaking in the high powered vehicle - an impossible option in the low powered vehicle.
I think the bottom line is that the power of the vehicle influences the size of the region within which the closer following position exists. With more power available the region is longer in both directions.
It's very difficult to define the close following position with precision. I've never seen anyone dare to do so in print.
As well as all of the valid reasons regarding observation and timing of the commitment point made already, there is another benefit in moving to the right before accelerating in terms of vehicle dynamics.
The 'lunge' technique means that you will be accelerating whilst turning, with all of the bad weight transferance this inccurs. If something should go wrong during the manoeuvre your car will not be ideally balanced to be able to take the necessary avoidance action. Worse still, if there is limited grip during your 'lunge' then you are potentially going to have all kinds of unwanted sideways action (from the back, front or both).
Accelerate in a straight line and everything will nbe much better balanced, much safer, and you'll be in a much better position to get out of trouble if you decide to abort the overtake.
The 'lunge' technique means that you will be accelerating whilst turning, with all of the bad weight transferance this inccurs. If something should go wrong during the manoeuvre your car will not be ideally balanced to be able to take the necessary avoidance action. Worse still, if there is limited grip during your 'lunge' then you are potentially going to have all kinds of unwanted sideways action (from the back, front or both).
Accelerate in a straight line and everything will nbe much better balanced, much safer, and you'll be in a much better position to get out of trouble if you decide to abort the overtake.
cptsideways said:
I have always used the elastic band technique
Ie Build up speed prior to the overtake, however this requires a BIG gap much bigger than most people imagine they need. This also gives you opportunity to use road positioning better as you can see round cars/lorries much easier from a distance.
Snap - in gutless diesels or small petrol engined cars this is the only way to do it unless you have nice long straights giving the time to spool up. Maybe you guys are right that if the overtake can't be done without using this technique then you simply shouldn't overtake, but sometimes that's consigning yourself to miles of nice road behind a dawdler!
This is only applicable on roads that I know well, but I hang well back prior to the final bend, generally drop a gear and accelerate to get the speed differential. Timing it such that you still have room to brake safely once round the bend and onto the straight if the overtaking point isn't clear doesn't present any great problems. My only misgiving about the technique is that it can give the "overtakee" a fright when you abort and brake behind them.
Don said:
This *almost* the IAM taught method.
IAM/Roadcraft method.
a) Follow at a safe distance.
b) When it looks like an overtake may be possible shortly move up to the "following distance" - sacrificing the two second safety rule temporarily.
c) If safe to do so move out to the right to take a good look.
d) If NOT on simply move back left - at the same speed and gear and perhaps allow the two second safety distance to grow back if traffic does not allow another attempt.
e) IF OVERTAKE is ON. Select best gear for acceleration and speed up briskly to overtake.
f) Check rear-view mirror to ensure it is safe to pull back over left.
g) Pull back over left.
The *only* difference is the sequence of when to select the best gear. This is done in the above AFTER moving out right to check the overtake is on BECAUSE if it isn't you can move back left without the need to brake/change gear back/having the engine at high revs for no reason.
In practice in a sports car it is likely that the methods will be identical as you will already be in a flexible, potent gear...
I *think* Roadcraft agrees with me. p132. It isn't very clear.
If it doesn't, it's wrong. We definitely want to change gear in the lower stress following position, not in the higher stress position on the right. Anyway, we need to be ready to go as soon as the overtake is on, and not get caught napping in too high a gear.
safespeed said:
I still don't see the bit in your post that many here agree is critically important. Exactly where are you when you commit to the overtake?
That's the whole point of having a large gap, good visibility & importantly an initial speed difference the point at which I am "committed" is much reduced & not so critical, but my decision time is much increased so less margin for error. My decision to go will often be on the offside, with excellent visibilty, a little excess speed & a big gap.
The bit I disagree with in roadcraft is the pull out onto the offside after reducing the gap. Without accelerating. Quite often mr Numpty will brake as you go to overtake or "appear to" this will leave you in the lurch 9/10 times & is VERY dangerous.
Also reducing the gap is directly proprtionate to lack of visibilty at a time precisely when you need it (to initiate the pull out to the offside). The IAM method in my book is dangerous practice as a routine. It has its benefits at times but is poor practice unless you have a very fast car that can see round things, eg a Cayenne Turbo!
One other point I have noticed many drivers will react poorly if they see you are about to pass. Often they look in their mirrors for the first time in miles, wander, accelerate, block you anything but carry on as normal. As a rule by leaving the gap you leave the decision making up to you not to mr Numpty. I will only normally indicate to those behind not to those in front.
>> Edited by cptsideways on Friday 5th November 20:29
safespeed said:
I have always used the elastic band technique
I've read your post a few times and I'm not clear that you're avoiding "Dan's mistake".
The points about observation are well made. There are many techniques for developing observation in preparation for overtaking - most involve positioning, and most are in Roadcraft.
I know what you mean, but the big gap is the key, it gives you time so your not rushed into an instant yes or no decision & you always have somewhere to go should it not pan out. Or your passed so quickly its not a problem.
I find the Elastic band technique (comes from driving underpowered cars) teaches you better decision making especially with the big gap. Using this technique with a small gap & reduced visibility is probably lethal I quite agree.
I still don't see the bit in your post that many here agree is critically important. Exactly where are you when you commit to the overtake?
Answering as one who uses this technique and finds this thread a most helpful source of useful thoughts... There are two "points of commitment" - the physical one, where there is no longer room to brake and remain behind the car instead of overtaking, and the mental one, when you make the decision to go for it or not. In my case the mental point would occur on the right hand side of the road able to see clearly past the car in front, accelerating, and before passing the physical point. (Though of course I may make a negative decision at any earlier point if I see something coming.)
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