Paying lawyers in advance?

[anonymous-user]

You seem to be assuming that I charge myself out at £100 an hour but I don't. I am rather more expensive than that. I was using £100 as an example to show what portion of the gross fee I take home.

[Red 4]

Breadvan72 said:

You seem to be assuming that I charge myself out at £100 an hour but I don't. I am rather more expensive than that. I was using £100 as an example to show what portion of the gross fee I take home.

My mistake.

The last Barrister who represented me charged £800 per day IIRC.

It appears I (well, The Police Fed actually) got a bargain.

It was a few years ago, mind ... and I'm oop Norf

Edited by Red 4 on Saturday 29th March 18:44

[LoonR1]

Breadvan72 said:

You seem to be assuming that I charge myself out at £100 an hour but I don't. I am rather more expensive than that. I was using £100 as an example to show what portion of the gross fee I take home.

And that you are billing hours 100% of the time.

[ging84]

I understand top lawyers get paid decent amounts of money
but i can't understand it being the going rate
the average person has little or negative net worth
so the average divorce lawyer must be sorting out the fiance on gary and tracey's white range rover sport and fighting over who gets to stay in the council house.

[djohnson]

Breadvan72 said:

You usually get paid, eventually, although in some cases years after doing the work.

Civil legal aid payments can routinely take eight to ten years to come through,.

Years! That's outrageous. I appreciate that my experience is confined to the corporate world but I'm at the winding up petition stage way before a debt is 'years' old.

I suppose at least you can view it as some type of pension scheme if it takes 8 to 10 years.

[Jasandjules]

EskimoArapaho said:

This was a surprise to me: divorce lawyers requiring payment up front (court appearances regarding access to children, financial settlement, etc). We're talking about £1750+VAT per day, for example.

Is this common/universal/etc?

Is this public access?

[eddy02]

My son and I are going through something at the moment that requires the services of a defence lawyer,my son being a student gets legal aid but seeing as I was classed as self employed at the time I don't.
I dont know why I am getting such a good deal but the lawyer is charging me peanuts.He is well respected so it is not as though it is some newbie getting some practice.

[voyds9]

Breadvan72 said:

Yes, and the delay is often longer than that. I got paid yesterday for something I did last September.

Does a win facilitate payment

[anonymous-user]

No, it makes no difference, and these days clients sometimes seek to renegotiate the fee downwards even after a win.

[Eclassy]

Breadvan72 said:

No, it makes no difference, and these days clients sometimes seek to renegotiate the fee downwards even after a win.

Breadvan

While you are discussing money can I please go a bit off topic and get an idea from you what costs can be recovered from a losing party.

For example, I instruct a solicitor to bring action against the police and I win. Will the police be expected to pay all my costs or will I have had to inform solicitors/barrister in advance that I am only willing to pay an amount not greater than what can be recovered from the losing party.

I have done a little bit of reading up on this and have seen a maximum daily fee of something like £267 for actions against the police. Does this mean if I win thats the maximum I can claim back even if say for instance the solicitor/barrister charged £800/day?

I hope I made some sense.

[10 Pence Short]

Eclassy said:

For example, I instruct a solicitor to bring action against the police and I win.

You have no cause of action against the Police. Your 'friend' might do. And he seemingly doesn't want to sue the Police.

My understanding is that you'd be exposed to the Police's costs if you lost, subject to any ATE insurance you may be able to secure. Depending on the merits of the case your friend might possibly benefit from a CFA too. However all of these things (not to mention litigation itself) would require commitment from your friend, which seems unlikely.

[EskimoArapaho]

Jasandjules said:

Is this public access?

Yes. Does it make a difference?

[Jasandjules]

EskimoArapaho said:

Jasandjules said:

Is this public access?

Yes. Does it make a difference?

Yes. A huge difference, thus the basis of my question.

It means you are paying him/her directly therefore given that you may not pay at all come win or lose, they want the money in advance of actually spending the days preparing and attending the hearings.

It is not that they would need to chase their instructing solicitor but you for the money. This would also cost time and money (if they had to sue for example, which might be more costly than writing off the fees). Therefore to avoid this they want the money in advance.

[pork911]

Different jurisdiction but in a past life of mine 85% before picking up a pen. Any debt on remainder of quoted fee or additional hourly rate work above and beyond, easily dealt with by a simple explanation that debt will cause client visa problems. Rarely necessary though as good work in a challenging legal environment, hence why not 100% upfront.

UK attitudes towards legal fees on both sides can sometimes in some areas be quite strange, professionals slightly embarrassed and clients slightly blind to it being a transaction.

[anonymous-user]

If you sue anybody and lose, you are likely to have to pay 70 to 80 per cent of their costs. If you win, you should recover 70 to 80 per cent of your costs. Costs risk can be mitigated by making settlement offers under Part 36 of the Civil Procedure Rules. In some public law cases raising issues of public importance, you can obtain a protective costs order and do not have to pay all of the opposing party's cposts if you lose. You can buy after the event insurance against litigation costs, but the premia are high. The position on a CFA (no win, no fee agreement) varies according to the terms of the CFA.

Meanwhile, in the family courts, legal aid cuts are having predictable effects.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/mar/29/legal-a...

Some law firms are being expected by the LSC to do the whole of a financial settlement case for a fee of £250. In some areas of the country there are "advice deserts" where no one on a low income can find a lawyer willing to take their case in fields such as family and education, social welfare, housing, debt, and employment.

Those not eligible for legal aid can pay lawyers privately if they can afford it, but the going rate is whatever the going rate is.

Privately paid family lawyers are in my opinion prone to over charging and they are not as good as the civil lawyers are in other fields.

A good junior of about five years seniority in my chambers (a "Magic Circle" set, in which the junior juniors are stellar talents) will charge about £750 plus VAT to prepare and conduct a half day procedural hearing in an area of practice that he or she is familiar with. The equivalent junior in a family set will charge double that for a procedural hearing in a family case and will be probably less than half as good a lawyer and advocate. I do some public law childcare cases and court of protection work and therefore sometimes see the Family Bar in action. I have seen advocacy from experienced family law counsel that I would regard as unacceptable from a first seat pupil at a training session in my chambers.

The best and brightest lawyers do not go into family law. Compare privately paid infertility doctors - not the best and brightest medics, but very well paid. The client/patient group for each of these professional groups consists of people in a tough spot.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th March 11:29

[Eclassy]

Breadvan72 said:

If you sue anybody and lose, you are likely to have to pay 70 to 80 per cent of their costs. If you win, you should recover 70 to 80 per cent of your costs. Costs risk can be mitigated by making settlement offers under Part 36 of the Civil Procedure Rules. In some public law cases raising issues of public importance, you can obtain a protective costs order and do not have to pay all of the opposing party's cposts if you lose. You can buy after the event insurance against litigation costs, but the premia are high. The position on a CFA (no win, no fee agreement) varies according to the terms of the CFA.

Meanwhile, in the family courts, legal aid cuts are having predictable effects.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/mar/29/legal-a...

Some law firms are being expected by the LSC to do the whole of a financial settlement case for a fee of £250. In some areas of the country there are "advice deserts" where no one on a low income can find a lawyer willing to take their case in fields such as family and education, social welfare, housing, debt, and employment.

Those not eligible for legal aid can pay lawyers privately if they can afford it, but the going rate is whatever the going rate is.

Privately paid family lawyers are in my opinion prone to over charging and they are not as good as the civil lawyers are in other fields.

A good junior of about five years seniority in my chambers (a "Magic Circle" set, in which the junior juniors are stellar talents) will charge about £750 plus VAT to prepare and conduct a half day procedural hearing in an area of practice that he or she is familiar with. The equivalent junior in a family set will charge double that for a procedural hearing in a family case and will be probably less than half as good a lawyer and advocate. I do some public law childcare cases and court of protection work and therefore sometimes see the Family Bar in action. I have seen advocacy from experienced family law counsel that I would regard as unacceptable from a first seat pupil at a training session in my chambers.

The best and brightest lawyers do not go into family law. Compare privately paid infertility doctors - not the best and brightest medics, but very well paid. The client/patient group for each of these professional groups consists of people in a tough spot.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Sunday 30th March 11:29

Thanks a lot BV72. Much appreciated.

[Rovinghawk]

Breadvan72 said:

Barristers have higher profit margins than solicitors. I reckon that for every £100 that I bill, after expenses and tax I get £35 ish. For every £100 that a law firm bills, probably less than £35 goes to the partners after expenses and tax.

Where does the rest of the money go? I understand a percentage would be bad debt & an amount for travel and similar, but what takes up the rest of the 65%?

[anonymous-user]

Have you ever heard of a thing called income tax? Starting at 100% of the fee received, 15% goes to chambers to cover staff, building and related insurance and maintenance, utilities, marketing, another 15% approx on books, subscriptions, regulatory costs, insurance, accountant, travel, court clobber, and replacements to office furniture and equipment eg a new PC or a new desk chair. That leaves 70%, of which approx half goes in tax and NI. Bad debts are rarely an issue.

[MarvGTI]

And here's my 2 simoleons concerning advances:

Worst thing I ever did in my ongoing divorce was pay the advances (1750€ + VAT) each time my lawyer asked.

The case was going nowhere (various reasons, though none from my side) and from June '13 to Jan '14 exactly zero progress was made - four letters were sent my way.

2x 1750€ + VAT for four letters? You've got to be joking.

He wasn't and when I said I'd like to see a tangible result before any more high sums change hands (every cent counts these days), he dumped me straight away and informed the court that he was no longer in charge if my legal defense.

He won't release my file unless I pay him in full and I can't afford another lawyer and start from scratch.

As I am not allowed to represent myself but don't qualify for legal assistance (crap law system here in Luxembourg) so I am now getting divorced without a lawyer, leaving my fate in the hands of the judges and my ex's lawyer.

This lawyer came highly recommended by people I know that have gotten a divorce, and suffice to say, "he wasn't always like this".

To think that there's still lawyers around that do it on a one-time lower advance (about 800€) and the remainder after the divorce, there's lawyers that don't require advances, there's even lawyers that offer interest-free finance!

Best is always to avoid having to go to a lawyer in the first place.

[Rovinghawk]

Breadvan72 said:

Have you ever heard of a thing called income tax? .......[Expenses]........ That leaves 70%, of which approx half goes in tax and NI.

Re-read your post; you did actually state tax in your figures, so my apologies.

Edited by Rovinghawk on Monday 31st March 11:23