It's coming - EU cross-border exchange of information
Discussion
Just heard this on the news. They are trying to implement it before the summer holidays start. It will be an utter disaster for the first couple of years of that I am sure.
On the plus side, I can still drive as quickly as I want to when visiting the UK
Just might have to slow down a tad in Belgium now.....
On the plus side, I can still drive as quickly as I want to when visiting the UK
Just might have to slow down a tad in Belgium now.....FiF said:
The point that's being missed is as discussed by agtlaw on page 1 and me on page 2 about a year ago is that the only way this can be made to work in a fair and just manner is if Portuguese and UK law is morphed into one, and Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Bulgarian, Lithuanian, Finnish, Swedish etc etc.
Which means complete political and legal union, before we even consider altering all the signs, road markings , traffic regulation orders, Highway code available in all languages and no sneaky little local conventions bla bla bla.
This should be a non-starter and hope UK tells the EU to FRO.
Something of an over-reaction methinks...Which means complete political and legal union, before we even consider altering all the signs, road markings , traffic regulation orders, Highway code available in all languages and no sneaky little local conventions bla bla bla.
This should be a non-starter and hope UK tells the EU to FRO.
We already have a situation at the moment where Scottish drink-drive legislation differs from the rest of the UK, although you can get banned from driving in England and Wales for having one over the Scottish 50, so to speak.
We also have a situation in the UK where virtually identical bits of road can have a different speed limit on them, because the locals have decided that this should be so. You don’t need me to tell you that there are, for example, bits of DC dotted around the place that all look the same but can have a 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 limit on them. You don’t need me to tell you because you can probably think of quite a few examples yourself.
You also probably already know, but perhaps haven’t thought of it in this context, that we have had fairly standardised road signage across what is now the EU since the 1960s. We no longer, for example, have those T-shaped signs saying “HALT AT MAJOR ROAD AHEAD” that we had when I was a kid, or “No entry” signs with those words written on them. And remember, all this changed when us joining the Common Market as it was then was just a twinkle in Ted Heath’s eye.
Tell me, how do they advise drivers that there is, say, a 50 limit in Spain, France, Italy, Poland and all the other EU states you mention? I thought they did it the same way as us but perhaps I’ve been driving around with my eyes closed.
True there are some local signs that only appear in certain countries (priority road signs in France and other countries spring immediately to mind), and there are also countries with quaint little customs (the French “give way to the right” has not fully died out and our quaint UK habit of driving on the proper side of the road to name but two) but if you are going to drive in other countries then you find out about it. Buy a French road atlas, for example, and all the local conventions are spelt out for you in there. It’s not rocket science to read it and take it all in.
Although I don’t agree with 2 many CVs any more than I have to, he’s right on this one. This is no more than making sure that if you break local laws in other EU member states then you can get done for it, in exactly the same way as if you live in England you can get nicked for breaking the speed limit in Wales, Scotland or NI.
No great EU conspiracy, no need to alter any signs, no need to print the Highway Code in umpteen languages, just an improvement on the current arrangements of bringing people to account when they’ve broken the law.
Or do you perhaps think that other people’s laws shouldn’t apply to Brits when they are in other people’s countries? If so, do you think it is OK for Johnny Foreigner to come over here, break our laws, and be allowed to get away with it? Somehow I doubt it.
rs1952 said:
FiF said:
The point that's being missed is as discussed by agtlaw on page 1 and me on page 2 about a year ago is that the only way this can be made to work in a fair and just manner is if Portuguese and UK law is morphed into one, and Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Bulgarian, Lithuanian, Finnish, Swedish etc etc.
Which means complete political and legal union, before we even consider altering all the signs, road markings , traffic regulation orders, Highway code available in all languages and no sneaky little local conventions bla bla bla.
This should be a non-starter and hope UK tells the EU to FRO.
Something of an over-reaction methinks...Which means complete political and legal union, before we even consider altering all the signs, road markings , traffic regulation orders, Highway code available in all languages and no sneaky little local conventions bla bla bla.
This should be a non-starter and hope UK tells the EU to FRO.
We already have a situation at the moment where Scottish drink-drive legislation differs from the rest of the UK, although you can get banned from driving in England and Wales for having one over the Scottish 50, so to speak.
We also have a situation in the UK where virtually identical bits of road can have a different speed limit on them, because the locals have decided that this should be so. You don’t need me to tell you that there are, for example, bits of DC dotted around the place that all look the same but can have a 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 limit on them. You don’t need me to tell you because you can probably think of quite a few examples yourself.
You also probably already know, but perhaps haven’t thought of it in this context, that we have had fairly standardised road signage across what is now the EU since the 1960s. We no longer, for example, have those T-shaped signs saying “HALT AT MAJOR ROAD AHEAD” that we had when I was a kid, or “No entry” signs with those words written on them. And remember, all this changed when us joining the Common Market as it was then was just a twinkle in Ted Heath’s eye.
Tell me, how do they advise drivers that there is, say, a 50 limit in Spain, France, Italy, Poland and all the other EU states you mention? I thought they did it the same way as us but perhaps I’ve been driving around with my eyes closed.
True there are some local signs that only appear in certain countries (priority road signs in France and other countries spring immediately to mind), and there are also countries with quaint little customs (the French “give way to the right” has not fully died out and our quaint UK habit of driving on the proper side of the road to name but two) but if you are going to drive in other countries then you find out about it. Buy a French road atlas, for example, and all the local conventions are spelt out for you in there. It’s not rocket science to read it and take it all in.
Although I don’t agree with 2 many CVs any more than I have to, he’s right on this one. This is no more than making sure that if you break local laws in other EU member states then you can get done for it, in exactly the same way as if you live in England you can get nicked for breaking the speed limit in Wales, Scotland or NI.
No great EU conspiracy, no need to alter any signs, no need to print the Highway Code in umpteen languages, just an improvement on the current arrangements of bringing people to account when they’ve broken the law.
Or do you perhaps think that other people’s laws shouldn’t apply to Brits when they are in other people’s countries? If so, do you think it is OK for Johnny Foreigner to come over here, break our laws, and be allowed to get away with it? Somehow I doubt it.
If you'd read what I wrote a year ago, on page two this thread, you will see I don't think that, and stated the reasons why, having driven all over Europe, North and South America, and a few other countries, the reason for me thinking this is could be a bad move.
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
But you clearly either haven't read it, or understood it. You are another one not thinking this through fully, or maybe lack of experience makes your pr EU bias, once again shows through,
As for the condescending nature of your comments, doesn't do you any favours.
Edited by FiF on Wednesday 11th February 19:15
I struggle to see the benefit of this other than as a money making fine raising scheme. It isn't as if there are not already mechanisms in place for tracing drivers back to their home countries for serious offences. I'm not sure I want traffic police in countries with a distinctly lower standard of policing to ours to be able to put points on my license for supposedly speeding in Bulgaria..
FiF said:
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
So, IYHO, it's perfectly OK for a Brit to go through France and drive like he would here, because he can't possibly be expected to learn how things differ here? With absolutely no comeback unless he happens to get a tug from les flics?What about a German businessman over here?
How about a Romanian truck driver?
(Full disclosure: I have an unpaid Romanian parking ticket from 2012. When I found the ticket, I looked around and figured the parking signs in short order, even without speaking any Romanian. If I'd paid it in 24hr, it would have been the grand sum of €1. Move over, Robin Hood, the _real_ outlaw is here. I am SOOOO naughty.)
TooMany2cvs said:
FiF said:
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
So, IYHO, it's perfectly OK for a Brit to go through France and drive like he would here, because he can't possibly be expected to learn how things differ here? With absolutely no comeback unless he happens to get a tug from les flics?What about a German businessman over here?
How about a Romanian truck driver?
(Full disclosure: I have an unpaid Romanian parking ticket from 2012. When I found the ticket, I looked around and figured the parking signs in short order, even without speaking any Romanian. If I'd paid it in 24hr, it would have been the grand sum of €1. Move over, Robin Hood, the _real_ outlaw is here. I am SOOOO naughty.)
But you seem to really miss the obvious point that there are other ways of dealing with the issues you raise. The UK could as Mr Hannon says actually make some sort of an effort at the border to counter foreign drivers committing offences and then sodding off. Handing control of putting points on Brits licenses to any police force within the EU is over the top.
Edited by User33678888 on Wednesday 11th February 20:02
FiF said:
No I don't think that other people's laws shouldn't apply to Brits over there, or vice versa.
If you'd read what I wrote a year ago, on page two this thread, you will see I don't think that, and stated the reasons why, having driven all over Europe, North and South America, and a few other countries, the reason for me thinking this is could be a bad move.
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
But you clearly either haven't read it, or understood it. You are another one not thinking this through fully, or maybe lack of experience makes your pr EU bias, once again shows through,
As for the condescending nature of your comments, doesn't do you any favours.
I don't agree. You go to another country and you follow the rules. You don't expect to be able to get away with it because you can simply clear off home. I you don't like the way the rules are applied then don't go to or drive in other countries. If you'd read what I wrote a year ago, on page two this thread, you will see I don't think that, and stated the reasons why, having driven all over Europe, North and South America, and a few other countries, the reason for me thinking this is could be a bad move.
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
But you clearly either haven't read it, or understood it. You are another one not thinking this through fully, or maybe lack of experience makes your pr EU bias, once again shows through,
As for the condescending nature of your comments, doesn't do you any favours.
Edited by FiF on Wednesday 11th February 19:15
Other than "I want to break the law in other countries and get away with it" I can't see any other reason to object to this.
FiF said:
So now your licence, livelihood and keeping a roof over your head could hang in the balance over an offence where realistically you have great difficulty in doing the right thing, even finding out what is the right thing to do.
In my opinion, if the EU want to bring in cross border enforcement of penalties, which includes points and possible disqualification in a driver's home country, then they can only do this with a complete integration of the laws and practices throughout the EU, including signage and information available in all languages.
In my opinion, if the EU want to bring in cross border enforcement of penalties, which includes points and possible disqualification in a driver's home country, then they can only do this with a complete integration of the laws and practices throughout the EU, including signage and information available in all languages.
agtlaw said:
Your UK licence won't be endorsed as the Directive refers only to financial penalties. You could be prosecuted in another member state and banned from driving there (and any other country with which it has a reciprocal agreement). Alternatively, you could get points or demerit points in another member state - potentially leading to a ban in that member state if you commit repeat offences. At the moment, we don't recognise foreign bans but I'd expect that to change at some point,
Please explain how your livelihood and licence can hang in the balance given this this just covers fines?What you or agtlaw think is fine but that doesn't mean it is going to happen.
You appear to be employing a slippery slope fallacy.
Devil2575 said:
Other than "I want to break the law in other countries and get away with it" I can't see any other reason to object to this.
Do you trust all of the EU member states police forces to be as honest and reputable as ours? This isn't a bit of casual xenophobia, but the acceptation that whilst the British police are not always perfect, they are nowhere near as corrupt as some other EU countries. User33678888 said:
Devil2575 said:
Other than "I want to break the law in other countries and get away with it" I can't see any other reason to object to this.
Do you trust all of the EU member states police forces to be as honest and reputable as ours? This isn't a bit of casual xenophobia, but the acceptation that whilst the British police are not always perfect, they are nowhere near as corrupt as some other EU countries. FiF said:
No I don't think that other people's laws shouldn't apply to Brits over there, or vice versa.
If you'd read what I wrote a year ago, on page two this thread, you will see I don't think that, and stated the reasons why, having driven all over Europe, North and South America, and a few other countries, the reason for me thinking this is could be a bad move.
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
But you clearly either haven't read it, or understood it. You are another one not thinking this through fully, or maybe lack of experience makes your pr EU bias, once again shows through,
Right, where do I start? If you'd read what I wrote a year ago, on page two this thread, you will see I don't think that, and stated the reasons why, having driven all over Europe, North and South America, and a few other countries, the reason for me thinking this is could be a bad move.
It's not just about speed limits, but more fundamental wanting justice applied in an equal way. The language of the road is applied in more detailed way that just the pictorial signs. Hain done it, it's not just as simple as buying a road atlas, I can assure you of that.
But you clearly either haven't read it, or understood it. You are another one not thinking this through fully, or maybe lack of experience makes your pr EU bias, once again shows through,
There is a world of difference between the letter of the law and the practicalities of enforcing it, both in this country and elsewhere. I did read your post on page 2, and that is why I posted in the way I did. Both in your original and your latest post you appear, to me at least, to be making mountains out of molehills.
I too have fallen foul of other county’s conventions, and one example was when I got a ticket in New York for parking next to a fire hydrant. I didn’t know you weren’t supposed to park next to one in the USA, there were no signs to say so, and that little episode cost me $150. SWMBO, who watches a lot more American films that I do (I suspect next door’s cat watches more American films than I do, but I digress) was astounded – I apparently should have known that you are not allowed to park next to a fire hydrant. But I learned the hard way, and I won’t be doing it again.
The US authorities had no problem in tracking me down, BTW – they contacted the car hire company and I quickly got to know about the matter...
But this is an interesting example in more ways than one. It is an example of a myriad of local laws and restrictions than can and do apply in countries all over the world. If you drive in those countries then you are supposed to familiarise yourself with them, and if you don’t – well, expect the consequences. In my case I failed to do the former and ended up doing the latter. I couldn't blame the language barrier, after all..
The other thing that makes this a good example is that the US authorities wouldn’t have wanted to lock me up for it. If, rather than park next to a fire hydrant, I had careered instead into a crowd of people and killed one or two, I expect their attitude may have been rather different. Even under the current arrangements within the EU, if you do something bad enough that may result in a custodial sentence, then the Spanish or the French or the Bulgarians are going to come after you, as are the authorities in any other country in the world, and not just in the EU.
What we are talking about here with the proposed EU arrangements covers what could be called minor infractions. You parked on the wrong side of the road at the wrong time of the month in Spain? Tough – cough up, the same as the Spanish have to. Personally I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with a foreign national getting a ticket for parking at 4.30 in the afternoon when the sign clearly says “No waiting 8am to 6pm.” If that person can’t read English, then it is not a problem for the English to make him understand – the problem lies with the foreign national for failing to find these things out.
By the way, I am so "pro-EU" that I have been in South Africa for a couple of months. They have their own conventions down here as well - you have to learn what "robots," "stop streets" and "circles" are, otherwise things can become difficult for both property and the wallet. I understand that there is a nice little motoring convention in Zimbabwe, by the way - if the Presidential Cavalcade is coming the other way, you have to stop. If you don't, they don't fine you, but the Security unit has other ways of ensuring you won't do it again...
Finally, although you and I have differed on the EU threads, I think you will see from the above that my stance has nothing to do with being pro- or anti-EU, it has more to do with being pro-justice for all, whoever they may happen to be. If a Belgian can be nicked for doing something in Belgium, then a Brit should not be allowed to get away with it simply because he lives in a different country, in exactly the same way as we would expect a Belgian not to get away with a minor motoring offence in the UK simply because he lives in Belgium, when you or I would have to write a cheque.
FiF said:
As for the condescending nature of your comments, doesn't do you any favours.
They weren’t intended to be condescending, and indeed I'm struggling a little to see what you might have thought was condescending about it. Over the years the EU has done some bloody stupid things, as have the governments of nation states that make up the EU. When I see a new EU directive I look at it in the round, and some of them make a lot of sense (like this one does IMHO). It appears that you, and some others on PH, tend to come at it from the opposite direction - "Its an EU idea so it must be a bad idea - lets think of some spurious arguments to prove that we're right and the EU is wrong."Devil2575 said:
User33678888 said:
Devil2575 said:
Other than "I want to break the law in other countries and get away with it" I can't see any other reason to object to this.
Do you trust all of the EU member states police forces to be as honest and reputable as ours? This isn't a bit of casual xenophobia, but the acceptation that whilst the British police are not always perfect, they are nowhere near as corrupt as some other EU countries. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff