MHA deputy Chief speaks out
Discussion
paul makin said:
she was arrested at a hospital that has acute, adult mental health in-patient facilities and a Liaison Psychiatry team working into the acute trust clinical areas. custody was considered appropriate at the material time so it's perhaps disingenuous to suggest that she should not have been in the cells. unless the arresting officers' assessment of need and risk was faulty in some way of course which would be a whole new thread perhaps.
i'm struggling to work out why she needed to stay in the cells for that length of time following the MHA assessment. i can think of several circumstances where this might have become necessary but every mental health provider i've worked with, or for, over the last 25 years has had clear protocol for dealing with this type of situation. some of the options available may not be ideal but they are better than a cell and certainly less potentially damaging than placing (what may be) a vulnerable minor in an adult psychiatric treatment setting.
i'm certainly not trying to defend the trust involved and have lost work in the past because of my attitude towards patient care (ie, it's why we're here and is our primary objective after staying in business) but i do wonder what their CAMHS service specification is and why their response to this referral for admission was less than timely. again, my inference is that there may be a little more to this than the initial reports are disclosing and without more details we are just speculating.
paul
The information we have is that there were no beds / places. This is consistent with what police officers are being told across the country. i'm struggling to work out why she needed to stay in the cells for that length of time following the MHA assessment. i can think of several circumstances where this might have become necessary but every mental health provider i've worked with, or for, over the last 25 years has had clear protocol for dealing with this type of situation. some of the options available may not be ideal but they are better than a cell and certainly less potentially damaging than placing (what may be) a vulnerable minor in an adult psychiatric treatment setting.
i'm certainly not trying to defend the trust involved and have lost work in the past because of my attitude towards patient care (ie, it's why we're here and is our primary objective after staying in business) but i do wonder what their CAMHS service specification is and why their response to this referral for admission was less than timely. again, my inference is that there may be a little more to this than the initial reports are disclosing and without more details we are just speculating.
paul
I'm certainly not getting at the NHS teams involved, as they have a very hard job to do with increasing demand, and decreasing resources and funding.
The problem the police have is they can't ever say "no" and can always 'fix' a situation when other services can't. I guess they've developed those skills and attitude through having to be like that. When your only option is to find a solution, then that's the only thing you do. Unfortunately, the solution for other services is the police so they haven't truly developed creative coping and 'making things work' when stretched and faced with a problem. Social services are much worse at this than the NHS.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-3027784...
The BBC says she's now on an adult psychiatric ward. There's something I don't like in that report. There's a few things about this incident that reminds me of Derek Smith's thread 'The Press mislead you and I'. A newspaper website I saw said she'd committed a breach of the peace, and then on the TV news I heard it was that and assault.
The BBC says she's now on an adult psychiatric ward. There's something I don't like in that report. There's a few things about this incident that reminds me of Derek Smith's thread 'The Press mislead you and I'. A newspaper website I saw said she'd committed a breach of the peace, and then on the TV news I heard it was that and assault.
carinaman said:
There's a few things about this incident that reminds me of Derek Smith's thread 'The Press mislead you and I'.
I'm sure I said either: 'You and I are misled by the press' or 'The press mislead you and me.'There is a lot of support for the press taking an aspect of a report and emphasiing it in a manner that distorts the event. We kid ourselves that we know what is happening but the truth is, we have no idea what the truth is.
I read a judge-led report into an incident and then, some years later, spoke with two people involved in it. Their reports contradicted not only the newspaper/other media comments but the report itself. One gave evidence at the hearing and his comments were ignored. The other officer was heavily criticised despite (or because more likely) they had a complete answer to the accusation.
Fair enough, this was pre-internet days but had either officer's comments appeared on social media they would have been heavily criticised or ignored as they contradicted what had become the established truth.
What is sobering is that there have been a number of cause celebres which have resulted in newspaper reports or major enquiries. In the few I've been involved in or have some inside knowledge of, I know that the conclusions are wrong.
After an incident I was invovled in, there was a TV report less than 24 hours later. I was watching it and I did not recognise 'my' incident until there was mention of one particular aspect. It was a whole series of distortions and inventions. Yet anyone seeing it would have thought that the police were inept.
I feel certain that, had it happened last Monday night, there would have been a long thread on here about how brutal the police are and how they over-react.
We know little about what goes on and it is deliberate.
Terminator X said:
Didn't "they" shut down all the mental hospital type places? I know our local one was demolished and now has hundreds of houses built there instead
TX.
Indeed they did, many were grand estates with their own farms and workshops. Few still exist, one or two are now maintained in the private/charity sector. Many are now luxury developments with commensurate price tags. Not sure how much the sites/buildings were sold for or whether the cash went back into the MH care pot. Community Care was a wonderful idea, problem is it was, and is, grossly underfunded.TX.
Here's a picture a "Virgin Active Spa" which is on the site of the old Claybury Hospital, now a gated development called Repton Park
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claybury_Hospital
A bit too good for the disadvantage unwell...........eh?
Derek Smith said:
carinaman said:
There's a few things about this incident that reminds me of Derek Smith's thread 'The Press mislead you and I'.
I'm sure I said either: 'You and I are misled by the press' or 'The press mislead you and me.'There is a lot of support for the press taking an aspect of a report and emphasiing it in a manner that distorts the event. We kid ourselves that we know what is happening but the truth is, we have no idea what the truth is.
I read a judge-led report into an incident and then, some years later, spoke with two people involved in it. Their reports contradicted not only the newspaper/other media comments but the report itself. One gave evidence at the hearing and his comments were ignored. The other officer was heavily criticised despite (or because more likely) they had a complete answer to the accusation.
Fair enough, this was pre-internet days but had either officer's comments appeared on social media they would have been heavily criticised or ignored as they contradicted what had become the established truth.
What is sobering is that there have been a number of cause celebres which have resulted in newspaper reports or major enquiries. In the few I've been involved in or have some inside knowledge of, I know that the conclusions are wrong.
After an incident I was invovled in, there was a TV report less than 24 hours later. I was watching it and I did not recognise 'my' incident until there was mention of one particular aspect. It was a whole series of distortions and inventions. Yet anyone seeing it would have thought that the police were inept.
I feel certain that, had it happened last Monday night, there would have been a long thread on here about how brutal the police are and how they over-react.
We know little about what goes on and it is deliberate.
Derek Smith said:
carinaman said:
There's a few things about this incident that reminds me of Derek Smith's thread 'The Press mislead you and I'.
I'm sure I said either: 'You and I are misled by the press' or 'The press mislead you and me.' Derek Smith said:
We know little about what goes on and it is deliberate.
Where does the police use of Twitter fit into the scheme of things?V8 Fettler said:
The conclusions of major enquiries were wrong? Do you mean major enquiries undertaken by the media, the police or the judiciary?
Specifically the political ones, often chaired by the judiciary. I have inside knowledge of some and for all of those the conclusions are wrong in some way.
Derek Smith said:
V8 Fettler said:
The conclusions of major enquiries were wrong? Do you mean major enquiries undertaken by the media, the police or the judiciary?
Specifically the political ones, often chaired by the judiciary. I have inside knowledge of some and for all of those the conclusions are wrong in some way.
V8 Fettler said:
Pointers please Derek (within PH rules of course), or is this going to be your next book?
There were three people involved in the Lawrence murder, one three separate occasions, although I got on well with one bloke and then when I met with another and said I was a SusPol trainer he said: Oh! You're that Derek. He then told a similar story from a different point of view. The third is the most worrying. YHM.
This is moving away from the important subject: the way the mentally ill are treated by the system. The police station should only be used as a place of safety in extremis and even then, never for a 16-year-old. In some cases offenders are treated better because of the rules governing their treatment, but if you are a bit loopy, who cares?
Derek Smith said:
In some cases offenders are treated better because of the rules governing their treatment, but if you are a bit loopy, who cares?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-jailed-br...I'm not sure what the police can be expected to do with him.
A one way ticket to NYC?
A big issue is those who have mental health issues, but they aren't so severe that they'll ever be forced to obtain treatment. There are a significant number of people who have mental health issues, but need to willingly accept this to be the case. Many of them won't so they present an unresolved and on-going problem for society.
La Liga said:
A big issue is those who have mental health issues, but they aren't so severe that they'll ever be forced to obtain treatment. There are a significant number of people who have mental health issues, but need to willingly accept this to be the case. Many of them won't so they present an unresolved and on-going problem for society.
Perhaps society should just accept some people are different... Not talking about the bloke who was threatening people and swearing. But look up the ex marine, who doesn't like clothes. Yes he isn't "normal" but no harm to anyone or anything - but we pay to lock him up for years and years. If he was left alone he would probably harm no one and might get bored of it eventually.
I've just chanced upon this from a retweet I've just seen online:
http://mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com/2014/12/06/co...
I thought it may be of interest to some.
After his suspension for reportedly criticising his own force it's good to see he's been seconded to the College of Policing.
http://mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com/2014/12/06/co...
I thought it may be of interest to some.
After his suspension for reportedly criticising his own force it's good to see he's been seconded to the College of Policing.
Nothing will change in the medium term because the simple sad truth is mental health care doesnt win significant votes. The public in general are still fairly ignorant and often still heavily prejudiced against those suffering with mental health conditions so when it comes to a physical condition needing funding versus mental health then its pretty clear what gets funded. ultimately most politicians are only interested in votes so championing mental health isnt going to help thier career prospects.
Psycho Warren said:
Nothing will change in the medium term because the simple sad truth is mental health care doesnt win significant votes. The public in general are still fairly ignorant and often still heavily prejudiced against those suffering with mental health conditions so when it comes to a physical condition needing funding versus mental health then its pretty clear what gets funded. ultimately most politicians are only interested in votes so championing mental health isnt going to help thier career prospects.
Umm - I'm completely open to being told I'm wrong here. But I think it's NHS managers who decide how the money is split. Targets make them split it in a certain way. But I don't "think" it's mandated how they spend most of their money.
Not that simple with the way the NHS is being split up. Those big decisions are now more about politics
As an example our local CAMHS service has just lost a huge chunk of budget because the county council/social services have decided to spend the money elsewhere.
Commissioning and funding of specialist services is frequently a total mess. I'm not convinced that it is going to get any better by putting GPs in charge.
As an example our local CAMHS service has just lost a huge chunk of budget because the county council/social services have decided to spend the money elsewhere.
Commissioning and funding of specialist services is frequently a total mess. I'm not convinced that it is going to get any better by putting GPs in charge.
TooLateForAName said:
Not that simple with the way the NHS is being split up. Those big decisions are now more about politics
As an example our local CAMHS service has just lost a huge chunk of budget because the county council/social services have decided to spend the money elsewhere.
Commissioning and funding of specialist services is frequently a total mess. I'm not convinced that it is going to get any better by putting GPs in charge.
Are most CCG's not run by GP's these days?As an example our local CAMHS service has just lost a huge chunk of budget because the county council/social services have decided to spend the money elsewhere.
Commissioning and funding of specialist services is frequently a total mess. I'm not convinced that it is going to get any better by putting GPs in charge.
carinaman said:
Its been happening for a while and appears to be working.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff