legal advice - re will and estate
Discussion
I agree, that is why I think a charge over a % of the home is more realistic. It keeps the sister happy, the OP gets to keep some value for his children for the future, it shouldn't cost a fortune to get an agreement drawn up. Plus there is an incentive for his sister to eventually offer to repay the money even if the OP decides not to accept it.
sparkyhx said:
I am faced with getting £5k out of my mums estate of £180k. Which was the house he never paid for.
STOP RIGHT THERE.No, you aren't.
You - apparently - got left nothing from your mother's estate. Instead, she left it all to him. At that point, it became HIS money, and his money alone. He can do whatever the heck he likes with it. Whether he made a promise to your mother, and whether he kept it or not, is entirely between two people who are both now dead.
sparkyhx said:
The rest (circa £200,000 including he pension & loan replayments) has been gone thru in 8 years. his fixed monthly outgoings were £350 per month(rent, bills). He was spending 21k a year on food, clothing, annual trips to IOM for the TT, and beer (mainly beer - no fecking wonder the landlady was upset when he died). TBH if he had lived another year he would have had nothing left except his pension.
As is his right. From the moment your mother chose to leave it to him rather than to you and your sister, it was HIS MONEY, to do with as he wished.sparkyhx said:
I don't want to sound bitter, but this is also driving some of my feelings.
I'm trying to work out whether my feelings are taking over from facts.
It seems they are.I'm trying to work out whether my feelings are taking over from facts.
Your mother died a while ago. She left her estate to her husband - your step-father. End of.
You step-father has now died. He is leaving his estate to your sister and you, jointly. End of.
Whether you want to press your sister for partial repayment of her debt to your step-father, so you can get your full half of his estate, is between your sister and you. Nobody else.
How rare it is that someone comes into an inheritance and thinks "this is something I didn't have yesterday, how fortuitous".
Instead it's all about leverage and negotiation, playing with money that didn't exist for them until a sad event occurred.
It's a shame that the smell of inheritance money often brings out the worst character traits in people, and galvanises people into becoming involved in family affairs where previously there was little or none.
Instead it's all about leverage and negotiation, playing with money that didn't exist for them until a sad event occurred.
It's a shame that the smell of inheritance money often brings out the worst character traits in people, and galvanises people into becoming involved in family affairs where previously there was little or none.
sparkyhx said:
Thanks for the replies. So the loan is part of the estate.
I'm in a difficult position.
My sister is NOT in a position to reply the loan. She can barely afford the payments as it is/was. There is NO WAY I am going to get her to pay it back to the estate and then split 50/50.
She does not have to pay it back firstI'm in a difficult position.
My sister is NOT in a position to reply the loan. She can barely afford the payments as it is/was. There is NO WAY I am going to get her to pay it back to the estate and then split 50/50.
You simply convert everything into cash then you take out of the pot what is left on her loan for yourself so you end up even - then split the rest 50/50
R0G said:
She does not have to pay it back first
You simply convert everything into cash then you take out of the pot what is left on her loan for yourself so you end up even - then split the rest 50/50
This doesn't make any sense to me.You simply convert everything into cash then you take out of the pot what is left on her loan for yourself so you end up even - then split the rest 50/50
Can you show your working?
Cashing the estate gives £10k.
And you want to give £5k of that to the sister who just had a £40k debt wiped out??
Durzel said:
Instead it's all about leverage and negotiation, playing with money that didn't exist for them until a sad event occurred.
It's a zero-sum game (not a great phrase here but bear with me)...So if the OP wants to go all "it's sad let's not negotiate or argue about it" he is essentially writing his sister a £15k cheque.
His sister just won the negotiation big time.
The money doesn't just disappear - it has given his sister a big boost to income by adding £2.5k per annum.
Just because you didn't have the money yesterday doesn't mean you should happily give it away without a thought the next day when you do have it. It's YOUR MONEY.
And frankly, it sounds like his sister has been given far more help in the past than the OP (£10k CC bill paid off and a £60k INTEREST FREE LOAN).
Sure I would happily write off £15k of bonus money to my feckless sister because I am not on the breadline but that doesn't stop the simple fact being that she has taken something from the OP and both of them should be aware of that fact. Hence the OP's original queston, I guess.
walm said:
This doesn't make any sense to me.
Can you show your working?
Cashing the estate gives £10k.
And you want to give £5k of that to the sister who just had a £40k debt wiped out??
Sorry missed that bit - wrongly assumed estate was much greater to cover what I suggestedCan you show your working?
Cashing the estate gives £10k.
And you want to give £5k of that to the sister who just had a £40k debt wiped out??
Estate would need to be at least as much as the amount still owed on the loan to make it work
If those are the correct figures then the only common sense way would be for the sister to pay the brother 30k at the same rate she was paying back the parent
That way the brother gets a steady extra income and the sister is not forced to take drastic action such as go bankrupt where nobody wins
TooMany2cvs said:
sparkyhx said:
It seems they are.
Your mother died a while ago. She left her estate to her husband - your step-father. End of.
You step-father has now died. He is leaving his estate to your sister and you, jointly. End of.
mum and stepdad were never married - house was hers before they met. they jointly borrowed on the house (not much)but the deeds were altered to be tenants in common rather than Joint Tenants. - so the deeper you delve the more complicated it gets, but the basic principle still stands.Your mother died a while ago. She left her estate to her husband - your step-father. End of.
You step-father has now died. He is leaving his estate to your sister and you, jointly. End of.
walm said:
R0G said:
She does not have to pay it back first
You simply convert everything into cash then you take out of the pot what is left on her loan for yourself so you end up even - then split the rest 50/50
This doesn't make any sense to me.You simply convert everything into cash then you take out of the pot what is left on her loan for yourself so you end up even - then split the rest 50/50
Can you show your working?
Cashing the estate gives £10k.
And you want to give £5k of that to the sister who just had a £40k debt wiped out??
The estate has £10k in cash and assets.
The sister owes the estate £40k. Let's imagine she writes "I owe the bearer of this note £1,000" on each of forty pieces of paper.
Add them together. The estate consists of £50k.
Halve it. Each half is £25k.
The sister gets 25 x £1,000 IOUs back, and can rip them up and bin them.
The OP gets the £10k in cash/assets, and the other 15 x £1,000 IOUs.
Whether the OP wants to chase their sister for that debt, or whether they want to formalise it via a charge on her property, is entirely his own concern. Like I said way up there... "Two grown adults".
sparkyhx said:
mum and stepdad were never married - house was hers before they met. they jointly borrowed on the house (not much)but the deeds were altered to be tenants in common rather than Joint Tenants. - so the deeper you delve the more complicated it gets, but the basic principle still stands.
Their marital status, and the history of ownership of the house, is irrelevant. She left him all her estate. It then became entirely his, to do with as he wished.The conversation is getting a bit unsavoury to me and recent ones have had people all hot and bothered about an insurance company wanting to be paid and not writing off a debt owed by the deceased.
Op you know the facts, the debts part of the estate. It's up to you now what you want to do as only you know your relationship with your sister etc.
No doubt others will find it necessary to post but it's not really got anything to do with us.
Op you know the facts, the debts part of the estate. It's up to you now what you want to do as only you know your relationship with your sister etc.
No doubt others will find it necessary to post but it's not really got anything to do with us.
To the OP - you have to sit down with your sister and guage this as two adults. Do you chase the debt or let it go that is the question you need to answer and only you can answer.
There was no money from your mother all that is in the past. It is the estate of your step father that you have to divvy up, and if he had decided to leave it to the local dogs home you would have been left with nothing, and you wouldnt be having this discussion.
however I understand where you are coming from this debt is part of the estate and it is the remainder of the debt that requires to be divided up. I would be inclined to divide that outstanding amount and indicate that you wish that money to be repaid one way or another, and how you come about that will be between both of you. It looks to be difficult as by all accounts.
forget the past but do it from now. work it out fairy and equally and your sis has to understand that the debt didnt die with the passing of the step father but became a concern to the estate. maybe worth discussing with a lawyer.
There was no money from your mother all that is in the past. It is the estate of your step father that you have to divvy up, and if he had decided to leave it to the local dogs home you would have been left with nothing, and you wouldnt be having this discussion.
however I understand where you are coming from this debt is part of the estate and it is the remainder of the debt that requires to be divided up. I would be inclined to divide that outstanding amount and indicate that you wish that money to be repaid one way or another, and how you come about that will be between both of you. It looks to be difficult as by all accounts.
forget the past but do it from now. work it out fairy and equally and your sis has to understand that the debt didnt die with the passing of the step father but became a concern to the estate. maybe worth discussing with a lawyer.
TooMany2cvs said:
sparkyhx said:
mum and stepdad were never married - house was hers before they met. they jointly borrowed on the house (not much)but the deeds were altered to be tenants in common rather than Joint Tenants. - so the deeper you delve the more complicated it gets, but the basic principle still stands.
Their marital status, and the history of ownership of the house, is irrelevant. She left him all her estate. It then became entirely his, to do with as he wished.I was also executor of her will so this is why I know all this. had it been Joint Tenants then my sister and I would have had her half of the property.
Edited by sparkyhx on Tuesday 21st April 19:51
walm said:
Durzel said:
Instead it's all about leverage and negotiation, playing with money that didn't exist for them until a sad event occurred.
It's a zero-sum game (not a great phrase here but bear with me)...So if the OP wants to go all "it's sad let's not negotiate or argue about it" he is essentially writing his sister a £15k cheque.
His sister just won the negotiation big time.
The money doesn't just disappear - it has given his sister a big boost to income by adding £2.5k per annum.
Just because you didn't have the money yesterday doesn't mean you should happily give it away without a thought the next day when you do have it. It's YOUR MONEY.
And frankly, it sounds like his sister has been given far more help in the past than the OP (£10k CC bill paid off and a £60k INTEREST FREE LOAN).
Sure I would happily write off £15k of bonus money to my feckless sister because I am not on the breadline but that doesn't stop the simple fact being that she has taken something from the OP and both of them should be aware of that fact. Hence the OP's original queston, I guess.
sparkyhx said:
Actually her will left her entire estate to me and my sister. All 3k before funeral expenses. If you look up "Tenants in Common" the title automatically passes to the other person and does NOT form part of the estate. Its fairly standard practice to avoid death duties on one persons death.
I was also executor of her will so this is why I know all this. had it been Joint Tenants then my sister and I would have had her half of the property.
Yes, you're right there.I was also executor of her will so this is why I know all this. had it been Joint Tenants then my sister and I would have had her half of the property.
But it still doesn't affect the more general point. The aftermath of your mother's death was that the house was entirely owned by your step-father, to do with as he wished. And, if what he wished was to piss it up the wall, that was his decision.
Jonsv8 said:
sparkyhx said:
she can't afford to buy out now really.
e.g. she still owes 40k - rest of estate is 10k - so in theory she should repay 40k and then get back 25k. so she would be 15k further in debt than she is now.
good point about the charge for a later date - hadn't thought of that.
I had thought about her paying the existing loan to me until she has paid the £15k difference, but I couldn't do that and take the cash as well, I'd sooner write it off.
I think your choice of words is interesting, I'd say she was 25k better off than she is now not 15k in further debt. If her debt was scrubbed and you took the 10k you've effectively gifted 15k which I think would be more than generous of you. e.g. she still owes 40k - rest of estate is 10k - so in theory she should repay 40k and then get back 25k. so she would be 15k further in debt than she is now.
good point about the charge for a later date - hadn't thought of that.
I had thought about her paying the existing loan to me until she has paid the £15k difference, but I couldn't do that and take the cash as well, I'd sooner write it off.
I don't think we can help much more as the decision is yours really.
I would suggest that you look into your heart and ask yourself what the old fella would really have wanted from you? I suggest he might have expected you to be generous to a fault, and take £5K happily. Also what sort of future relationship would you like with your sister?
Pit Pony said:
I would suggest that you look into your heart and ask yourself what the old fella would really have wanted from you?
As the posts still come including from the OP.. maybe its not unsavory, in which case I imagine the old fella would have thought blowing the cash on his wake would have been the way to do itTooMany2cvs said:
sparkyhx said:
Actually her will left her entire estate to me and my sister. All 3k before funeral expenses. If you look up "Tenants in Common" the title automatically passes to the other person and does NOT form part of the estate. Its fairly standard practice to avoid death duties on one persons death.
I was also executor of her will so this is why I know all this. had it been Joint Tenants then my sister and I would have had her half of the property.
Yes, you're right there.I was also executor of her will so this is why I know all this. had it been Joint Tenants then my sister and I would have had her half of the property.
But it still doesn't affect the more general point. The aftermath of your mother's death was that the house was entirely owned by your step-father, to do with as he wished. And, if what he wished was to piss it up the wall, that was his decision.
The fact is, there is something left. But the liquid assets are far less than he was telling us and this leaves me in the situation where for me and my family to get anything I feel like I have to shaft my sister to a certain extent. Which is plainly not the case from a legal point of view.
At the end of the day irrespective of the legal rights and wrongs my heart is telling me I can't do what my head is telling me to do.
Edited by sparkyhx on Tuesday 21st April 20:58
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