Private Roads and the Law
Discussion
I know this is a tired topic, but trawling through all the posts I cannot come to a firm conclusion.
I live on a farm where there is a private farm track, on the OS map which goes from the farmyard to the main road, a distance of about a mile.
There is a locked gate at the main road end but the farmyard end is open to a minor road so in theory anyone could drive in although there is a sign saying "private Land"
I saw in the press that a farmer had been done for drunk driving on a similar road, I think he collided with someone, and the judgement was that because the road was ungated it was to all intents and purposes the same as a public road except for paying road tax. So the vehicle must be MOTd and insured as well as keeping to other limits.
If this is true, I presume it means that I cannot use a mobile phone or eat a banana in the middle of the farm with the engine running.
It also must imply that anyone who has an ungated driveway to their house and after a heavy party session decides to put the car away into the garage, a distance of say twenty yards, could be done for drunk driving.
Is there any truth in any of this?
I live on a farm where there is a private farm track, on the OS map which goes from the farmyard to the main road, a distance of about a mile.
There is a locked gate at the main road end but the farmyard end is open to a minor road so in theory anyone could drive in although there is a sign saying "private Land"
I saw in the press that a farmer had been done for drunk driving on a similar road, I think he collided with someone, and the judgement was that because the road was ungated it was to all intents and purposes the same as a public road except for paying road tax. So the vehicle must be MOTd and insured as well as keeping to other limits.
If this is true, I presume it means that I cannot use a mobile phone or eat a banana in the middle of the farm with the engine running.
It also must imply that anyone who has an ungated driveway to their house and after a heavy party session decides to put the car away into the garage, a distance of say twenty yards, could be done for drunk driving.
Is there any truth in any of this?
It is a relatively complicated area and I'll await a solicitor person to confirm the case law side of things. However the key thing is whether a road is considered public from a point of view of an open highway..
Not my words:
Common law has established that a highway is a defined route over which "the public at large" can pass and repass as frequently as they wish, without hindrance and without charge. The use must be as of right and not on sufferance or by licence. There is no clear statutory definition of a highway.
This I would think would mean your 1 mile road is fine, I've spent many drunken nights as a kid (ok a long time ago) driving things up very similar drives.
I think the complication comes with drink driving though. I believe they can arrest you if they consider you are going to drive on the road and you to some extent have to prove that isn't the case. Also drives directly off say a pavement woudl be considered open to the public and hence you're done.
It would be very much a case by case basis.
Hope that suitably clouds your thoughts....
Not my words:
Common law has established that a highway is a defined route over which "the public at large" can pass and repass as frequently as they wish, without hindrance and without charge. The use must be as of right and not on sufferance or by licence. There is no clear statutory definition of a highway.
This I would think would mean your 1 mile road is fine, I've spent many drunken nights as a kid (ok a long time ago) driving things up very similar drives.
I think the complication comes with drink driving though. I believe they can arrest you if they consider you are going to drive on the road and you to some extent have to prove that isn't the case. Also drives directly off say a pavement woudl be considered open to the public and hence you're done.
It would be very much a case by case basis.
Hope that suitably clouds your thoughts....
The recent story I recall was of a child who was in a working area of a farm. Child was killed by large farm machinery (not an uncommon occurence, sadly). Driver of the farm machine was over the limit after a shedfull the night before, but couldn't be prosecuted because the incident was on private land.
Road. UK law: https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/the-r...
Lots of links in it for you to explore & there will be umpteen court rulings covering various locations.
Should keep you amused for hours
Lots of links in it for you to explore & there will be umpteen court rulings covering various locations.
Should keep you amused for hours
It's not just a question of whether it's a highway - the Road Traffic Act defines a road as "any highway and any other road to which the public has access". Certain parts or the Road Traffic Act (such as the section of drink driving) apply on a "road or other public place".
If the farm track is a highway (which would include a public footpath or public bridleway) then it's automatically subject to the Road Traffic Act. If not then it's a question of whether the public have access, whih is a complex question but broadly the courts have defined the test as two-fold
(1) Do the general public (as opposed to a special class of people, such as you, your guests and people with business at the farm) as a matter of fact actually use the road and
(2) if so, are they doing so in defiance of any explicit or implicit prohibition?
It's often wrongly claimed that a road is always public if there is no gate or barrier at the end of it but the truth is more complicated. A gate is good evidence that the general public are prohibited but the absence of a gate doesn't prove that they're not. A "Keep out plebs" sign is also evidence of a prohibition. And an implied prohibition can be good enough. There's an implied prohibition on members of the public walking up your driveway to have a look round your garden, so your short drive in a town is not a public place. A farm track in the middle of nowhere is less clear - if members of the public do use it as a short cut, to walk their dogs or just to take in the country air and you haven't made much effort to stop them then it might be judged that it was being used with your tolerance, and therefore that it was a public place.
Ultimately it's a matter of fact and degree which depends on the specific details of the road in question and there's a large grey area where lawyers make their money so if in doubt it's better not to drive up and down the track drunk - in fact it's probably better not to drive up and down it drunk at all, but that's a different argument.
Added - couple of links - recentish High Court case with a summary of the law, and a summary of the law from a solicitor's website.
If the farm track is a highway (which would include a public footpath or public bridleway) then it's automatically subject to the Road Traffic Act. If not then it's a question of whether the public have access, whih is a complex question but broadly the courts have defined the test as two-fold
(1) Do the general public (as opposed to a special class of people, such as you, your guests and people with business at the farm) as a matter of fact actually use the road and
(2) if so, are they doing so in defiance of any explicit or implicit prohibition?
It's often wrongly claimed that a road is always public if there is no gate or barrier at the end of it but the truth is more complicated. A gate is good evidence that the general public are prohibited but the absence of a gate doesn't prove that they're not. A "Keep out plebs" sign is also evidence of a prohibition. And an implied prohibition can be good enough. There's an implied prohibition on members of the public walking up your driveway to have a look round your garden, so your short drive in a town is not a public place. A farm track in the middle of nowhere is less clear - if members of the public do use it as a short cut, to walk their dogs or just to take in the country air and you haven't made much effort to stop them then it might be judged that it was being used with your tolerance, and therefore that it was a public place.
Ultimately it's a matter of fact and degree which depends on the specific details of the road in question and there's a large grey area where lawyers make their money so if in doubt it's better not to drive up and down the track drunk - in fact it's probably better not to drive up and down it drunk at all, but that's a different argument.
Added - couple of links - recentish High Court case with a summary of the law, and a summary of the law from a solicitor's website.
Edited by Aretnap on Saturday 8th August 10:01
This is the story I was thinking of: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3181620/Tr...
TooMany2cvs said:
Vanin said:
If this is true, I presume it means that I cannot ... eat a banana in the middle of the farm with the engine running.
Care to go into any more detail on that one?If it is deemed to be a Highway then I should be in prison for a long time.
Especially if I am up against the lawyer who managed to persuade a jury that O J Simpson was innocent.
It is a very grey area and I cannot find the piece about the farmer who was done
It went round all the farming magazines and the conclusion was that all tracks should be gated and locked
As I said this has many implications for people's private driveways
Will I be arrested for drinking, eating or smoking whilst driving?
It is not a criminal offence in itself to drink, smoke or eat whilst driving a vehicle however there is a potential punishment of failing to drive with due care and attention. It is therefore a matter of how the individual activity affects your ability to drive reasonably and safely on the roads.
A common example is when a person lights a cigarette. It can be very difficult to drive with due care and attention since part of that person’s attention will be concerned with using a lighter.
The Highway Code states that motorists must “avoid distractions when driving such as loud music, trying to read maps, inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio, eating and drinking and smoking”.
bigandclever said:
Vanin said:
The Highway Code states that motorists must “avoid distractions when driving such as loud music, trying to read maps, inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio, eating and drinking and smoking”.
I doubt that's a "must" in the Highway Code.This whole subject is driving me to drink!
Aretnap said:
Not sure how you work out that you'll be going to prison for a long time for talking on a mobile while driving, whether or not it's a public road.
I think the prison bit was to do with the shotgun, if I was shooting a rabbit out of the window on a "Highway" if it was deemed to be one. Here is another post from someone who has actually tested this subject in the courts.
He was using a mobile phone while exiting a building site which was not public land but had no gates.
"I was leaving a work place, driving through their car park speaking on my phone. The Police stopped me as I left the car park, now not on the phone, and gave me 3 points and £60 for being on the phone. My argument I was on private land was met with the above. I took it to court and lost as despite it not being legally accesible to the public, there was no barriers to stop the public from entering, so therefore it was publically accesible (and to be honest, lots of JP used the car park to double back on themselves). Fecking annoyed, as my £60 turned to £1000 and I couldn't shout at lawyer, who gave me the advice to go to court and challenge it in the first place....
So,
If it is publicly accessible, then the provisions of the road traffic act apply, which includes insurance, speed limits, drink driving etc."
Anyone have the name of a good automatic gate company?!!
Vanin said:
bigandclever said:
Vanin said:
The Highway Code states that motorists must “avoid distractions when driving such as loud music, trying to read maps, inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio, eating and drinking and smoking”.
I doubt that's a "must" in the Highway Code.This whole subject is driving me to drink!
148. Safe driving and riding needs concentration. Avoid distractions when driving or riding such as
- loud music (this may mask other sounds)
- trying to read maps
- inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio
- arguing with your passengers or other road users
- eating and drinking
- smoking
ging84 said:
There is a big f
king difference between having a shotgun in your car, and essentially using it to do a drive by shooting.
Not quite sure of your point here. I do shoot from the car where it is safe to do so around the farm. It is much fairer on the rabbits as you have the car door frame to stabilise the shot and therefore make it more accurate.king difference between having a shotgun in your car, and essentially using it to do a drive by shooting.If the track I am on which may be a mile away from the nearest road/house or person is accessible from the main highway due to there being no gate (I am not even sure if a Private Keep Out sign is good enough)then it seems that legally I am on a highway and therefore shooting a gun illegally from a car on a highway.
This whole issue starts to become very silly when I consider the fact that I have about thirty field entrances off the highways around here. Someone in a 4x4 could drive anywhere on the farm across the fields if there was no gate. Therefore I assume all the rules of the road (insurance/MOT/drink driving/eating/lighting cigarettes/ phoning) all apply even in the middle of a hundred acre field!!
You're not on a highway. If it was, you'd be able to tell that it was a highway from the "Public footpath" (or similar) sign at the end of it, or from the note of the existence of a right of way on your deeds. A highway is a route over which the public have a right to pass and repass. The absence of a gate or "keep out" sign certainly doesn't turn a track into a highway - except in the eyes of people on the Internet who like to use legal terms that they don't understand.
If the general public do use it in spite of not having an explicit right to do so (do they?) then it might be a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act. That's not the same as being a public place for the purposes of firearms legislation - I'm not up on how that's defined but I can see that the definition is different from that used in the Road Traffic Act.
The notion that the absence of a gate or barrier by itself turns a track into a public road is just plain wrong. See the link in my post above for an example of a case where the High Court found that a road with no such barrier was not a public place and overturned someone's drink driving conviction. If the conclusion of the case you read about was that any track with no barrier is a public road then either there was more to the case than that and the journalist misreported it, or the magistrates got it wrong (which happens now and then - that's why there are higher courts to correct them).
If the general public do use it in spite of not having an explicit right to do so (do they?) then it might be a public place for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act. That's not the same as being a public place for the purposes of firearms legislation - I'm not up on how that's defined but I can see that the definition is different from that used in the Road Traffic Act.
The notion that the absence of a gate or barrier by itself turns a track into a public road is just plain wrong. See the link in my post above for an example of a case where the High Court found that a road with no such barrier was not a public place and overturned someone's drink driving conviction. If the conclusion of the case you read about was that any track with no barrier is a public road then either there was more to the case than that and the journalist misreported it, or the magistrates got it wrong (which happens now and then - that's why there are higher courts to correct them).
Vanin said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Vanin said:
If this is true, I presume it means that I cannot ... eat a banana in the middle of the farm with the engine running.
Care to go into any more detail on that one?Vanin said:
...
It also must imply that anyone who has an ungated driveway to their house and after a heavy party session decides to put the car away into the garage, a distance of say twenty yards, could be done for drunk driving.
....
No, it doesn't imply anything of the sort. Your conclusion is, if you will forgive me for saying this, a classic example of barrack room lawyering. The life of the law, said some learned Judge or other (I forget whom), lies more in experience than in logic. If something seems daft, then it usually is daft, and for the most part (with some glaring exceptions) the law is not daft. It also must imply that anyone who has an ungated driveway to their house and after a heavy party session decides to put the car away into the garage, a distance of say twenty yards, could be done for drunk driving.
....
TooMany2cvs said:
Vanin said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Vanin said:
If this is true, I presume it means that I cannot ... eat a banana in the middle of the farm with the engine running.
Care to go into any more detail on that one?It forbids the use of a handheld phone while driving a motor vehicle on a road.
Parked in a layby, you are not driving, and potentially not even on a road.
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