New cars, Winter tyres and Consumer Law !
Discussion
Every year we have the discussion about the wisdom of fitting winter tyres because both car and tyre manufacturers say 'summer' tyre are poor in cold weather e.g. below 7degrees C.
Consumer Law says a car bought from a dealer must be fit for purpose which I suggest means driveable ALL year. In the UK the temperature is below 7 for about 40% of the time: say half of the year for the sake of argument.
So if you buy a new car in the Autumn, Winter and early Spring should it come fitted with All-weather tyres because otherwise for almost 50% of the year you are not (it could be argued) following the manufacturer's recommendation !!
In my experience most new cars I have bought come fitted with so-called summer tyres and then they pester me to buy their 'winter' tyre sets!!
I wonder if our legal eagles have a view on how the new regs that came on-stream from the 1st October might affect the definition of 'fit-for-purpose'?
Consumer Law says a car bought from a dealer must be fit for purpose which I suggest means driveable ALL year. In the UK the temperature is below 7 for about 40% of the time: say half of the year for the sake of argument.
So if you buy a new car in the Autumn, Winter and early Spring should it come fitted with All-weather tyres because otherwise for almost 50% of the year you are not (it could be argued) following the manufacturer's recommendation !!
In my experience most new cars I have bought come fitted with so-called summer tyres and then they pester me to buy their 'winter' tyre sets!!
I wonder if our legal eagles have a view on how the new regs that came on-stream from the 1st October might affect the definition of 'fit-for-purpose'?
drdel said:
Every year we have the discussion about the wisdom of fitting winter tyres because both car and tyre manufacturers say 'summer' tyre are poor in cold weather e.g. below 7degrees C.
In actuality the slant is quite different. In general, winter tyres start to perform better than summer tyres at about 7 degrees. At 7 there's not much different.
The problem is, any warmer than 7 the performance of a winter tyre is worse than a summer tyre. Stopping distance, in the wet, they wear faster, and are less fuel economical.
Riley Blue said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Riley Blue said:
In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather.
The interminable winter-tyre-or-not debate is that way --->HustleRussell said:
I bloody hope not, that'd cost car dealers a fortune and guess who they're going to pass the cost onto?
ETA: oh, and this would certainly result in all used cars being fitted with the cheapest nastiest budget winter tyres which are really the worst of all worlds.
Not true = all they would need to do is fit 'All-season' tyres. ETA: oh, and this would certainly result in all used cars being fitted with the cheapest nastiest budget winter tyres which are really the worst of all worlds.
The so-called 'summer' tyres are usually fitted because they give the best 'test' performance for journalists and most markets.
We don't have summer tyres in the UK, we have all year tyres. Some may choose to fit more appropriate tyres in winter, but few of us fit specialist Michelin Cups or slicks in summer (legality aside)
I have true summer tyres on my road bike. They have virtually no tread when new, don't work unless warm and don't last very long either.
The question' pretty daft IMO and has been pointed out above, if dealers were compelled to provide two full sets of new tyres with every car, then the purchaser would be paying for them. It would also then be compulsory for us all to have two sets of tyres. There is little need for winter tyres to be made compulsory IMO
I have true summer tyres on my road bike. They have virtually no tread when new, don't work unless warm and don't last very long either.
The question' pretty daft IMO and has been pointed out above, if dealers were compelled to provide two full sets of new tyres with every car, then the purchaser would be paying for them. It would also then be compulsory for us all to have two sets of tyres. There is little need for winter tyres to be made compulsory IMO
ralphrj said:
drdel said:
In the UK the temperature is below 7 for about 40% of the time: say half of the year for the sake of argument.
I would be very surprised if that were true.Unless you live in Scotland, in which case you're on your own, let's make a few assumptions.
"Normal" driving is between the hours of 6am and 12am.
Typically in the UK, you don't see 7 Celsius or less in this period outside of late-Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. So you're already restricting yourself to 3.5/12 months, = 29%.
Then consider that for maybe half of these days it'll never drop that low = 15% left.
Next, consider that even when it does, it won't always be that cold in the middle of the day (i.e. lunch/afternoon), so you can probably knock another 1/4 off = 12% left.
So, even by optimistics maths, it only drops below 7 Celsius for 12% of the time.
Finally, let's consider when winter tyres really show an improvement, i.e. on snow and ice. Which more than halves the above figure - both are rare things in the UK. So even being generous, we're at a figure where winter tyres are truly required for ~6% of the time. So let's use a window of 5-10%, to account for variations across the UK.
Does it really make sense then?!?
(BTW, I have winter tyres and I'm looking for a new set for the wife's car. But for many people they're not necessary, so I don't see we need to legislate for them, at least not in England...)
TooMany2cvs said:
Riley Blue said:
In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather.
The interminable winter-tyre-or-not debate is that way --->Given the 10s of millions of cars in the country, if that wasn't true then no-one would be able to move from October to march for all the wrecks piled 3-deep everywhere.
Since we're not 3-deep in wrecks as soon as the nights close in, a car sold with normal tyres clearly isfit for purpose even in winter.
LoonR1 said:
We don't have summer tyres in the UK, we have all year tyres. Some may choose to fit more appropriate tyres in winter, but few of us fit specialist Michelin Cups or slicks in summer (legality aside)
I have true summer tyres on my road bike. They have virtually no tread when new, don't work unless warm and don't last very long either.
The question' pretty daft IMO and has been pointed out above, if dealers were compelled to provide two full sets of new tyres with every car, then the purchaser would be paying for them. It would also then be compulsory for us all to have two sets of tyres. There is little need for winter tyres to be made compulsory IMO
That and the fact that generally speaking you get a decent brand fitted to a brand new car anyway. I have true summer tyres on my road bike. They have virtually no tread when new, don't work unless warm and don't last very long either.
The question' pretty daft IMO and has been pointed out above, if dealers were compelled to provide two full sets of new tyres with every car, then the purchaser would be paying for them. It would also then be compulsory for us all to have two sets of tyres. There is little need for winter tyres to be made compulsory IMO
To the OP:
Winter tyres aren't snow tyres so the comparison you really should be making is on cold wet roads rather than being able to pull away when there's a bit of snow. Winter tyres are undoubtedly safer when the temperature is a few degrees or less but you can still drive on regular tyres albeit with a bit of added caution. Ultimately, the tyre choice is with the driver not the law in this country.
I would imagine in places with winter tyre laws like Germany you would get either a summer or winter tyre fitted depending on the handover date.
havoc said:
Precisely this.
Unless you live in Scotland, in which case you're on your own, let's make a few assumptions.
"Normal" driving is between the hours of 6am and 12am.
Typically in the UK, you don't see 7 Celsius or less in this period outside of late-Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. So you're already restricting yourself to 3.5/12 months, = 29%.
Then consider that for maybe half of these days it'll never drop that low = 15% left.
Next, consider that even when it does, it won't always be that cold in the middle of the day (i.e. lunch/afternoon), so you can probably knock another 1/4 off = 12% left.
So, even by optimistics maths, it only drops below 7 Celsius for 12% of the time.
Finally, let's consider when winter tyres really show an improvement, i.e. on snow and ice. Which more than halves the above figure - both are rare things in the UK. So even being generous, we're at a figure where winter tyres are truly required for ~6% of the time. So let's use a window of 5-10%, to account for variations across the UK.
Does it really make sense then?!?
(BTW, I have winter tyres and I'm looking for a new set for the wife's car. But for many people they're not necessary, so I don't see we need to legislate for them, at least not in England...)
I am from Scotland and would say that while it depends how bad the winter is, it is usual for temperatures to be around 7 degrees or less for most of the day from now till March. I certainly get the use out of my set and would say that due to the generally wet conditions as well as the frost and cold, they're better at least 80% of driving time. I'm not sure I'd be too worried about fitting winter tyres in somewhere like Devon though.Unless you live in Scotland, in which case you're on your own, let's make a few assumptions.
"Normal" driving is between the hours of 6am and 12am.
Typically in the UK, you don't see 7 Celsius or less in this period outside of late-Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. So you're already restricting yourself to 3.5/12 months, = 29%.
Then consider that for maybe half of these days it'll never drop that low = 15% left.
Next, consider that even when it does, it won't always be that cold in the middle of the day (i.e. lunch/afternoon), so you can probably knock another 1/4 off = 12% left.
So, even by optimistics maths, it only drops below 7 Celsius for 12% of the time.
Finally, let's consider when winter tyres really show an improvement, i.e. on snow and ice. Which more than halves the above figure - both are rare things in the UK. So even being generous, we're at a figure where winter tyres are truly required for ~6% of the time. So let's use a window of 5-10%, to account for variations across the UK.
Does it really make sense then?!?
(BTW, I have winter tyres and I'm looking for a new set for the wife's car. But for many people they're not necessary, so I don't see we need to legislate for them, at least not in England...)
Riley Blue said:
In 40 years of driving dozens and dozens of different cars I've never found summer tyres to be poor in cold weather. Why, because I drive to the conditions, just as I would if I had winter tyres fitted.
OP - on your new cars which didn't have summer tyres fitted, did you put some on?
Interesting POV. I've been unable to make it up about a 1 in 500 hill with summer tyres on and a road with snow and perhaps some ice. Are your summer tyres magic?OP - on your new cars which didn't have summer tyres fitted, did you put some on?
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff