Zenith Collections - Intention to Commence Legal....
Discussion
Maty said:
Red Devil said:
I can only assume you have been living under a rock for the last 3 years since PoFA 2012 brought in keeper liability. 
ANPR systems are well known for 'double dip' errors - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...
Also they can only prove entry, not that any parking took place! - http://parkingeye.parkingfine-appeals.co.uk/mystor...
Did you get a till receipt for the fuel? If so, do you still have it? Failing that you should contact your bank. They should be able to confirm when your card was processed at the till terminal (your bank statement entry on its own won't cut it). However it doesn't prove what time you left the site. You could try getting Asda onside but having left it this long they may not be so willing to help you.
What would be ideal is if have any proof that you and your wife were each somewhere else during the intervening period between the first exit and second entry times.
Hopefully you can get the PCN cancelled but be aware that achieving it may turn out to be something of a PITA.
I have better things to do than keep up with current affairs in the private parking company world but thanks for the advice. Hind sight is a wonderful thing.ANPR systems are well known for 'double dip' errors - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...
Also they can only prove entry, not that any parking took place! - http://parkingeye.parkingfine-appeals.co.uk/mystor...
Did you get a till receipt for the fuel? If so, do you still have it? Failing that you should contact your bank. They should be able to confirm when your card was processed at the till terminal (your bank statement entry on its own won't cut it). However it doesn't prove what time you left the site. You could try getting Asda onside but having left it this long they may not be so willing to help you.
What would be ideal is if have any proof that you and your wife were each somewhere else during the intervening period between the first exit and second entry times.
Hopefully you can get the PCN cancelled but be aware that achieving it may turn out to be something of a PITA.
The fuel was paid for on a debit card. Unmanned filling station but I have proof from the bank of the card transaction. I also have a print out from the Asda click and collect food order showing it was collected between 3:30 & 5:00.
The 'fine' is £80 currently, or £120 if left. The amount isn't the point.
Yes that's correct in that the camera clearly hasn't captured me leaving Asda at lunch or my wife re entering. Or they are selective in their pictures!
A judge may look upon it unfavourably but I would disagree that I have wasted anyone's time! They have sent 8 standard letters. It's not exactly business expense crippling is it.
Letter sent to Smart. Letter sent to Zenith denying the debt. Letter also sent to Asda with all the evidence.
We'll see what happens.
As others have said, ignoring letters for six months looks poor, and may picture you as a "chancer" in court.
If their cameras are rolling all day then surely they would be asked for footage of car exits 10 minutes after my entry... This would show if I did indeed leave after filling up.
I couldn't spend 5 hours at this Asda if I tried. There are no other retail outlets and it's not even close to a town centre worth walking into.,,
Never mind. The general consensus on pepipoo is to do what I've now done ie sending the letters so we'll see. Smart aren't known for issuing court proceedings either apparently.
I couldn't spend 5 hours at this Asda if I tried. There are no other retail outlets and it's not even close to a town centre worth walking into.,,
Never mind. The general consensus on pepipoo is to do what I've now done ie sending the letters so we'll see. Smart aren't known for issuing court proceedings either apparently.
Helicopter123 said:
If you can walk away from this for £80 then you have had a result.
As others have said, ignoring letters for six months looks poor, and may picture you as a "chancer" in court.
Sorry but imo it's chancers with that point of view that enable these companies to operate. As others have said, ignoring letters for six months looks poor, and may picture you as a "chancer" in court.
Maty said:
If their cameras are rolling all day then surely they would be asked for footage of car exits 10 minutes after my entry... This would show if I did indeed leave after filling up.
I couldn't spend 5 hours at this Asda if I tried. There are no other retail outlets and it's not even close to a town centre worth walking into.,,
Never mind. The general consensus on pepipoo is to do what I've now done ie sending the letters so we'll see. Smart aren't known for issuing court proceedings either apparently.
As it has gone so far I would try to find out any disclosure type law that could allow you to demand the rest of the footage in order to prove your innocence. The burdon of proof should be on them but as others have said, how you look in court could swing the case.I couldn't spend 5 hours at this Asda if I tried. There are no other retail outlets and it's not even close to a town centre worth walking into.,,
Never mind. The general consensus on pepipoo is to do what I've now done ie sending the letters so we'll see. Smart aren't known for issuing court proceedings either apparently.
All in all its this sort of thread that means I don`t visit shops anymore. One robot decides to give you a headache and its months to sort out.
Discussed it with the wife and we both agreed its home deliveries all the time and we have save a fortune over the years as we cannot be tempted by all that in store nonsense.
Don`t visit the town centre anymore once the parking got awkward either, the shops and the council cannot fleece you if you are not there to be fleeced!
Discussed it with the wife and we both agreed its home deliveries all the time and we have save a fortune over the years as we cannot be tempted by all that in store nonsense.
Don`t visit the town centre anymore once the parking got awkward either, the shops and the council cannot fleece you if you are not there to be fleeced!
Truffs said:
All in all its this sort of thread that means I don`t visit shops anymore. One robot decides to give you a headache and its months to sort out.
Discussed it with the wife and we both agreed its home deliveries all the time and we have save a fortune over the years as we cannot be tempted by all that in store nonsense.
Don`t visit the town centre anymore once the parking got awkward either, the shops and the council cannot fleece you if you are not there to be fleeced!
What a strange view to take. How exactly do shops fleece you? How is the parking so awkward that it renders you some sort of hermit?Discussed it with the wife and we both agreed its home deliveries all the time and we have save a fortune over the years as we cannot be tempted by all that in store nonsense.
Don`t visit the town centre anymore once the parking got awkward either, the shops and the council cannot fleece you if you are not there to be fleeced!
I suppose it is a bit of an odd view but I do think that when you go into a store that there is a lot of thought that goes into trying to entice you into buying more than you need and then a lot of it gets wasted. Then a load of people blame waste on two for one offers and the like when I suspect some of it is impulse purchases.
As to city centres there does seem to be so many ways of losing money while trying to get to the shops. Bus lane cameras, box junctions which traps cars, risky parking overstays and long jams or expensive public transport with people who always seem to be ill coughing and spluttering every 5 seconds.
A trip to a city centre store reminds me of the epic trip a salmon takes to try to get back to its spawning ground and your wallet is the salmon!
As to city centres there does seem to be so many ways of losing money while trying to get to the shops. Bus lane cameras, box junctions which traps cars, risky parking overstays and long jams or expensive public transport with people who always seem to be ill coughing and spluttering every 5 seconds.
A trip to a city centre store reminds me of the epic trip a salmon takes to try to get back to its spawning ground and your wallet is the salmon!
Truffs said:
I suppose it is a bit of an odd view but I do think that when you go into a store that there is a lot of thought that goes into trying to entice you into buying more than you need and then a lot of it gets wasted. Then a load of people blame waste on two for one offers and the like when I suspect some of it is impulse purchases.
As to city centres there does seem to be so many ways of losing money while trying to get to the shops. Bus lane cameras, box junctions which traps cars, risky parking overstays and long jams or expensive public transport with people who always seem to be ill coughing and spluttering every 5 seconds.
A trip to a city centre store reminds me of the epic trip a salmon takes to try to get back to its spawning ground and your wallet is the salmon!
It does seem life is very hard for you!As to city centres there does seem to be so many ways of losing money while trying to get to the shops. Bus lane cameras, box junctions which traps cars, risky parking overstays and long jams or expensive public transport with people who always seem to be ill coughing and spluttering every 5 seconds.
A trip to a city centre store reminds me of the epic trip a salmon takes to try to get back to its spawning ground and your wallet is the salmon!
How are you at getting dressed and showered in the morning, I mean there's no end of pitfalls there!
(and 
) .
Where is the fuel station in relation to the entry / exit points of the car park ?
Does Google maps show its location ?
A lot of the Asda fuel stations I've seen are separate to the car park, to allow fill up with fuel but not to visit the supermarket. But if the car park cameras are poorly located ?
Can you see what I'm getting at ?
Does Google maps show its location ?
A lot of the Asda fuel stations I've seen are separate to the car park, to allow fill up with fuel but not to visit the supermarket. But if the car park cameras are poorly located ?
Can you see what I'm getting at ?
The ticket that you first received IS NOT a legal document - it is merely an invoice. It might have all the appearance of a legal doc - but it ain't.
These companies rely on the 75% - 80% of people that just pay up. Those that do NOT respond eventually get forgotten about,DESPITE the threatening letters.
Just ignore EVERYTHING.
These companies rely on the 75% - 80% of people that just pay up. Those that do NOT respond eventually get forgotten about,DESPITE the threatening letters.
Just ignore EVERYTHING.
Rich, the fuel station is part of the car park. There's only one way in and one way out so there's only a single camera to capture everything. I had another look yesterday and the camera is located at the entrance and should therefore see everything.
That was my understanding too Datsun and therefore why I ignored everything until now. But apparently things have changed and whereas before the PPC's had to prove who was driving at the time now they can just go after the registered keeper, therefore ignoring them is not really an option anymore, you have to dispute unfortunately.
That was my understanding too Datsun and therefore why I ignored everything until now. But apparently things have changed and whereas before the PPC's had to prove who was driving at the time now they can just go after the registered keeper, therefore ignoring them is not really an option anymore, you have to dispute unfortunately.
Starfighter said:
There are 2 different drivers here -OP and Mrs OP. Does the parking company have a legitimate claim when 2 drivers visit the same place within a prescribed interval or does this whole case rest on the parking companies assumption of single entry and exit = parked?
I thought the same. But on the pictures you can't see who was driving. Me going in is a photo of the rear of the car, Mrs coming out just shows the front bumper and part of the bonnet, again no visible driver.
Maty said:
Helicopter123 said:
If you can walk away from this for £80 then you have had a result.
As others have said, ignoring letters for six months looks poor, and may picture you as a "chancer" in court.
Sorry but imo it's chancers with that point of view that enable these companies to operate. As others have said, ignoring letters for six months looks poor, and may picture you as a "chancer" in court.
Maty said:
Red Devil said:
I can only assume you have been living under a rock for the last 3 years since PoFA 2012 brought in keeper liability.
ANPR systems are well known for 'double dip' errors - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...
Also they can only prove entry, not that any parking took place! - http://parkingeye.parkingfine-appeals.co.uk/mystor...
Did you get a till receipt for the fuel? If so, do you still have it? Failing that you should contact your bank. They should be able to confirm when your card was processed at the till terminal (your bank statement entry on its own won't cut it). However it doesn't prove what time you left the site. You could try getting Asda onside but having left it this long they may not be so willing to help you.
What would be ideal is if have any proof that you and your wife were each somewhere else during the intervening period between the first exit and second entry times.
Hopefully you can get the PCN cancelled but be aware that achieving it may turn out to be something of a PITA.
I have better things to do than keep up with current affairs in the private parking company world but thanks for the advice. Hind sight is a wonderful thing.ANPR systems are well known for 'double dip' errors - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...
Also they can only prove entry, not that any parking took place! - http://parkingeye.parkingfine-appeals.co.uk/mystor...
Did you get a till receipt for the fuel? If so, do you still have it? Failing that you should contact your bank. They should be able to confirm when your card was processed at the till terminal (your bank statement entry on its own won't cut it). However it doesn't prove what time you left the site. You could try getting Asda onside but having left it this long they may not be so willing to help you.
What would be ideal is if have any proof that you and your wife were each somewhere else during the intervening period between the first exit and second entry times.
Hopefully you can get the PCN cancelled but be aware that achieving it may turn out to be something of a PITA.
This is (allegedly) a forum for motoring enthusiasts (although at times I'm beginning to wonder). One might be forgiven for thinking that they would be savvy enough to keep abreast of developments. Furthermore, when clamping was abolished and RK liability* introduced in 2012 there was plenty of publicity and the resulting issues have been aired many times on here since then.
In any game, ignorance of the rules means you will very likely be out-manoeuvred by your opponent who a) knows them and b) is not above bending them** in the hope/realisation that you haven't acquainted yourself with them.
* That said, PoFA only applies to E&W. Scotland is another country where only the driver can be pursued.
** UKPC tried it on in Sotland in 2014 then realised that they would be taking a bath - http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/uk-p...
In 2015 CEL faced a charge of attempted fraud - http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/561976/London-par...
Starfighter said:
There are 2 different drivers here -OP and Mrs OP. Does the parking company have a legitimate claim when 2 drivers visit the same place within a prescribed interval or does this whole case rest on the parking companies assumption of single entry and exit = parked?
If you mean two separate visits at different times (double dip), no, it doesn't have a legitimate claim and yes, it does rest on the assumption you mention. The hard part can be proving that the RK/driver and the car were somewhere else in the gap period. That said, ANPR is not a foolproof system. For example the judge in Parking Eye v Fox-Jones ruled for the motorist because the PPC was unable to refute a challenge (IIRC synchronicity of camera images and timestamps) per paragraph 21.3 of the BPA CoP.This explains some of the problems which can cause a double dip failure and tips on preventive measures - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/ho...
If your vehicle has a tracking device then that can prove the PPC's technology is flawed despite their contention to the contrary.
As I see it the reality is if the OP had raised the objection at the time then the parking company could have gone through the intervening film looking for the car leaving and returning. With such a significant delay they may no longer have the film and I suspect many less honest people than the OP might have said they left and returned when they didn't.
Chrisgr31 said:
As I see it the reality is if the OP had raised the objection at the time then the parking company could have gone through the intervening film looking for the car leaving and returning. With such a significant delay they may no longer have the film and I suspect many less honest people than the OP might have said they left and returned when they didn't.
You appear to be confusing ANPR systems with CCTV. See - http://www.anpr-tutorial.com/ - for how ANPR works.The only way those image files could go missing is if they were overwritten/erased and no back-up kept.
It would prove fatal to a court case if they could not be produced and this case hasn't even got that far.
Besides, if for any reason there has been a failure to record the VRM on first exit, the PPC could search for ever and never find it.
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