Can West Midlands police really do this????
Discussion
chow pan toon said:
NWTony said:
I do largely agree with you, I don't do a lot of city centre driving and don't have alot of problems with cyclists day to day. However I do have some sympathy with the idea that those who pay for a service ( the roads) are apparently singled out by the law for the benefit of those who don't. It seems to go against the ideals of natural justice in the same way that people object to benefit recipients with 8 kids complain about the levels of benefits they receive, if you see what I mean?
I pay £800 a year "road tax" for my cars, is it OK for me to have full access to the roads when I'm on my bike? How about when I'm driving, can those cheapskates with Priuses etc who pay no road tax get out of my way?
But you miss the point, its not that you are on the road its that you are complaining about the roads and having special dispensation whilst not contributing directly. I don't agree I think we should all be able to get along, but I can see why there is resentment.
NWTony said:
So at £800 you are familiar with paying the tax per vehicle I presume
But you miss the point, its not that you are on the road its that you are complaining about the roads and having special dispensation whilst not contributing directly. I don't agree I think we should all be able to get along, but I can see why there is resentment.
Oh for crying out loud, you can't be this dim?! You're seriously not claiming that you somehow pay more for the roads than the next man, surely?But you miss the point, its not that you are on the road its that you are complaining about the roads and having special dispensation whilst not contributing directly. I don't agree I think we should all be able to get along, but I can see why there is resentment.
The people who pay most for the roads are the people who pay most tax, particularly council tax. End of.
NWTony said:
So at £800 you are familiar with paying the tax per vehicle I presume
But you miss the point, its not that you are on the road its that you are complaining about the roads and having special dispensation whilst not contributing directly. I don't agree I think we should all be able to get along, but I can see why there is resentment.
Vehicle Excise Duty tax is a general taxation that doesn't directly go into road repairs or upgrades.But you miss the point, its not that you are on the road its that you are complaining about the roads and having special dispensation whilst not contributing directly. I don't agree I think we should all be able to get along, but I can see why there is resentment.
Most road repairs come out of the councils budget which is mostly made up from council tax, which most people pay regardless if they're walking, cycling or driving.
Its just marketing spin though - we know why we pay road tax, err I mean 'internal combustion engine fine' heebeegeetee said:
The people who pay most for the roads are the people who pay most tax, particularly council tax. End of.
Well, not quite. Council tax funds between 1/3 and 1/2 of council budgets, but many major road schemes will be funded via the Department for Transport via national agencies rather than the repairs, which are funded locally.But given taxes aren't really hypothicated in the UK, generally the more tax you pay, the more you'll be funding road expenditure. It's not really a line of debate worth pursuing IMO.
I do wonder about some cyclists though: particularly the lycra peloton brigade: they don't seem to appreciate that fast A roads and narrow NSL stretches are not the best place to carry out their desired recreational activity? Especially on weekdays, when a lot of other groups also need the roads to do stuff like earn a living.
I completely support the West Midland's police initiative however, and it seems to be set about in a fair and proportional manner. The consequences of bad driving for cyclists are obviously catastrophic, and so positive intervention is a good thing.
But it does feel like you're pushing at a closed door withe some cyclists, who seem determined to marginalise themselves, rather than accept some "give" and "take" in their position on the finite resource that is the UK's road space.
Ian
Ian Geary said:
Well, not quite. Council tax funds between 1/3 and 1/2 of council budgets, but many major road schemes will be funded via the Department for Transport via national agencies rather than the repairs, which are funded locally.
But given taxes aren't really hypothicated in the UK, generally the more tax you pay, the more you'll be funding road expenditure. It's not really a line of debate worth pursuing IMO.
I do wonder about some cyclists though: particularly the lycra peloton brigade: they don't seem to appreciate that fast A roads and narrow NSL stretches are not the best place to carry out their desired recreational activity? Especially on weekdays, when a lot of other groups also need the roads to do stuff like earn a living.
I completely support the West Midland's police initiative however, and it seems to be set about in a fair and proportional manner. The consequences of bad driving for cyclists are obviously catastrophic, and so positive intervention is a good thing.
But it does feel like you're pushing at a closed door withe some cyclists, who seem determined to marginalise themselves, rather than accept some "give" and "take" in their position on the finite resource that is the UK's road space.
Ian
Whatever you think, groups of Lycra clad cyclists will generally do everything they can to avoid fast A roads. They will use them if necessary but not by choice.But given taxes aren't really hypothicated in the UK, generally the more tax you pay, the more you'll be funding road expenditure. It's not really a line of debate worth pursuing IMO.
I do wonder about some cyclists though: particularly the lycra peloton brigade: they don't seem to appreciate that fast A roads and narrow NSL stretches are not the best place to carry out their desired recreational activity? Especially on weekdays, when a lot of other groups also need the roads to do stuff like earn a living.
I completely support the West Midland's police initiative however, and it seems to be set about in a fair and proportional manner. The consequences of bad driving for cyclists are obviously catastrophic, and so positive intervention is a good thing.
But it does feel like you're pushing at a closed door withe some cyclists, who seem determined to marginalise themselves, rather than accept some "give" and "take" in their position on the finite resource that is the UK's road space.
Ian
What's wrong with narrow NSL roads? I'm not really sure what roads you can cycle on if you don't use those. Round towns and cities? No thanks!
frisbee said:
What's wrong with narrow NSL roads?
Numpties who are scared to overtake / trying to overtake following these guidelines means that IME you get huge tailbacks - not so bad when you're following a 30+mph cyclist but most are a lot less.When there's only one cyclist (or around here, horse rider) that's ok.
But sometimes I can meet 5 cyclists and two horse riders on a 5 mile stretch - when the roads are busier I'll meet less as I'll be forced to follow the queue !
Then you get the cycle clubs - 10+ bikes riding two abreast in a line are virtually impossible to overtake safely on a narrow / twisty road and they wonder why some drivers get annoyed.
V8RX7 said:
Numpties who are scared to overtake / trying to overtake following these guidelines means that IME you get huge tailbacks - not so bad when you're following a 30+mph cyclist but most are a lot less.
When there's only one cyclist (or around here, horse rider) that's ok.
But sometimes I can meet 5 cyclists and two horse riders on a 5 mile stretch - when the roads are busier I'll meet less as I'll be forced to follow the queue !
Then you get the cycle clubs - 10+ bikes riding two abreast in a line are virtually impossible to overtake safely on a narrow / twisty road and they wonder why some drivers get annoyed.
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file? If they did they would be going slower and you would need to overtake a line of cyclists that is twice the length....When there's only one cyclist (or around here, horse rider) that's ok.
But sometimes I can meet 5 cyclists and two horse riders on a 5 mile stretch - when the roads are busier I'll meet less as I'll be forced to follow the queue !
Then you get the cycle clubs - 10+ bikes riding two abreast in a line are virtually impossible to overtake safely on a narrow / twisty road and they wonder why some drivers get annoyed.
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGRQgw6PDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9pmw2ckQSU
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file?
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Yes - on narrow lanes there is room for 1 bike and one car.For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Obviously it would be better if they didn't cycle on narrow roads at all or limit the number in each group - but that would take some consideration so is obviously out of the question.
If it is possible for anyone to overtake - I can, I'm happy to brush handlebars / elbows with my mirrors but I doubt they are.
V8RX7 said:
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file?
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Yes - on narrow lanes there is room for 1 bike and one car.For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Obviously it would be better if they didn't cycle on narrow roads at all or limit the number in each group - but that would take some consideration so is obviously out of the question.
If it is possible for anyone to overtake - I can, I'm happy to brush handlebars / elbows with my mirrors but I doubt they are.
WinstonWolf said:
V8RX7 said:
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file?
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Yes - on narrow lanes there is room for 1 bike and one car.For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Obviously it would be better if they didn't cycle on narrow roads at all or limit the number in each group - but that would take some consideration so is obviously out of the question.
If it is possible for anyone to overtake - I can, I'm happy to brush handlebars / elbows with my mirrors but I doubt they are.
I was replying to his comment regarding people who CAN'T overtake. I CAN overtake but choose not to out of consideration for the cyclists.
V8RX7 said:
WinstonWolf said:
V8RX7 said:
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file?
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Yes - on narrow lanes there is room for 1 bike and one car.For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Obviously it would be better if they didn't cycle on narrow roads at all or limit the number in each group - but that would take some consideration so is obviously out of the question.
If it is possible for anyone to overtake - I can, I'm happy to brush handlebars / elbows with my mirrors but I doubt they are.
I was replying to his comment regarding people who CAN'T overtake. I CAN overtake but choose not to out of consideration for the cyclists.
At least WMP are doing something about the idiots (not necessarily you) who overtake too close.
V8RX7 said:
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Would you prefer the cycling clubs rode single file?
For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Yes - on narrow lanes there is room for 1 bike and one car.For people that do not have a clue how to drive, Chris Boardman put together a couple videos full of hap-handy hints:
Obviously it would be better if they didn't cycle on narrow roads at all or limit the number in each group - but that would take some consideration so is obviously out of the question.
If it is possible for anyone to overtake - I can, I'm happy to brush handlebars / elbows with my mirrors but I doubt they are.
Sounds like you need to surrender your driving license before you kill someone - if you cannot overtake safely either wait or get on the bus.
V8RX7 said:
jesusbuiltmycar said:
Unbelievable!
Sounds like you need to surrender your driving license before you kill someone - if you cannot overtake safely either wait or get on the bus.
Believable stupidity !Sounds like you need to surrender your driving license before you kill someone - if you cannot overtake safely either wait or get on the bus.
READ ALL THE POSTS FFS !
Crackie said:
here_we_go said:
Crackie said:
What if the cyclist has a wobble or weave as the driver passes ? What if the cyclist has to move out abruptly, as the car is alongside, to avoid a drain cover or some other road furniture?
This is exactly why you should give cyclists that space!creampuff said:
As for the 1.5m suggestion. That has no basis in reality whatsoever. Each overtake is on its merits and they have no power whatsoever to dictate 1.5 metres. If the HC guidance is followed, well then cars often overtake other cars with well under 1.5m clearance so the chance of a prosecution based on an opinion of an overtake with less than 1.5m clearance, with no other factors involved, is zero.
You are supposed to give cyclists as much space as you would give to a car. That is very different to the distance between you and a cyclist when passing. That is the lesson that the police are trying to impart here.
I recently started road cycling and am frankly amazed at the stupidity of some drivers who seem to think it is reasonable to pass a road bike within a single lane of a normal 7.3m wide road. That allows 3.65m for a bike and a car which is clearly not enough.
The police graphic points out that the cyclist is well within their rights to be 0.75m off the kerb, to avoid hazards and allow them to plot a predictable course and that you should give them at least 1.5m of space. Assuming your car is around 1.7m wide then you WILL have to cross the white line to pass properly, exactly as you would when passing a car.
There is no excuse for passing within inches of a bike, and when you are cycling you realise just how dangerous that is.
To put this in perspective, I cycle a lot and I drive a lot. Last night I went for an eighteen mile loop partly in town and partly on country roads. Every single driver gave me good space. Every single one!
I think the message is getting across, it's just a tiny minority on each side that thinks the road belongs to them.
t
ts are tts whatever they drive or ride.
I think the message is getting across, it's just a tiny minority on each side that thinks the road belongs to them.
t
ts are tts whatever they drive or ride.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff