Can I do 70 here?
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
PF62 said:
So this is a dual carriageway - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2098154,-0.48782...
<counts carriageways>Yep.
mac96 said:
A very odd one though. Looks to be designed solely to prevent overtaking on a long straight bit but allow it on the curve at the end. Why? And wouldn't a double white line have been cheaper? The fact that it increases the speed limit presumably wasn't the plan?
If you look at the difference in the central reservation and verges at this point compared to the rest of the stretch it would appear that there has previously been something there. I'd guess the fact that there is a central reservation is linked to whatever that was.Cat
Three replies, two and a half of them miss the point completely. God bless PH
Surely to Betsy the point of the 'two carriageways separated by something' rule is to allow a higher limit because of the reduced risk of crossing between one carriageway and the other. 18" of grass will make no difference whatsoever to that, so it can't be a DC.*
Surely to Betsy the point of the 'two carriageways separated by something' rule is to allow a higher limit because of the reduced risk of crossing between one carriageway and the other. 18" of grass will make no difference whatsoever to that, so it can't be a DC.*
ferrariF50lover said:
Three replies, two and a half of them miss the point completely. God bless PH
Surely to Betsy the point of the 'two carriageways separated by something' rule is to allow a higher limit because of the reduced risk of crossing between one carriageway and the other. 18" of grass will make no difference whatsoever to that, so it can't be a DC.*
Your last sentence is a classic non-sequitur. For a start the relevant legislation makes no such stipulation.Surely to Betsy the point of the 'two carriageways separated by something' rule is to allow a higher limit because of the reduced risk of crossing between one carriageway and the other. 18" of grass will make no difference whatsoever to that, so it can't be a DC.*
Look again: a bit closer. It's not just grass: there is also a concrete kerb over which the former has encroached.
As for a crossover, only an armco or concrete barrier will help prevent such occurrences.
Current construction is likely to have one or the other. There is plenty of older stuff which doesn't.
You can find examples all over the UK if you care to search.
A30 Dual Carriageway section... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3269063,-0.79898... ...although one lane of the westbound carriageway has been taken away by painting it red and adding a solid white line.
Amazing how many people slow to 60mph (or less) for it though, regardless of conditions or traffic density.
A little further along and there are a pair of 'Dual Carriageway Ends' signs... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3253322,-0.80562... ...and then a further pair of signs warning of a return to two-way traffic. The road is two lanes in t'other direction, but the westbound side was altered because too many people were overtaking right up to, and beyond, the point where the two westbound lanes merged. This led to some near misses and accidents, so the lane merge point was moved right back and I've never seen anyone overtake on the red/hatched area since the change was implemented. It costs you a few seconds if you're stuck behind an HGV, or Derek & Doris discussing what to put in tomorrow's sandwiches, but overall it's far safer for everyone now that lunatics are not pressing home desperate last-minute overtakes to shave a nanosecond off their commute home to watch Corrie.
The whole point of the NSL diagonal stripe is that it cuts down on signage costs and clutter. The limit along a stretch of road can vary between single and dual carriageway limits for vehicle class, dependent on the road design and construction without having to place speed limit entry point signs every few hundred yards. If the road design authority wants you to drive at a limit slower than the NSL for your vehicle class, then they'll let you know by handily displaying that lower limit in the form of large black numbers in a natty red circle, à la... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3150775,-0.74488...
Amazing how many people slow to 60mph (or less) for it though, regardless of conditions or traffic density.
A little further along and there are a pair of 'Dual Carriageway Ends' signs... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3253322,-0.80562... ...and then a further pair of signs warning of a return to two-way traffic. The road is two lanes in t'other direction, but the westbound side was altered because too many people were overtaking right up to, and beyond, the point where the two westbound lanes merged. This led to some near misses and accidents, so the lane merge point was moved right back and I've never seen anyone overtake on the red/hatched area since the change was implemented. It costs you a few seconds if you're stuck behind an HGV, or Derek & Doris discussing what to put in tomorrow's sandwiches, but overall it's far safer for everyone now that lunatics are not pressing home desperate last-minute overtakes to shave a nanosecond off their commute home to watch Corrie.
The whole point of the NSL diagonal stripe is that it cuts down on signage costs and clutter. The limit along a stretch of road can vary between single and dual carriageway limits for vehicle class, dependent on the road design and construction without having to place speed limit entry point signs every few hundred yards. If the road design authority wants you to drive at a limit slower than the NSL for your vehicle class, then they'll let you know by handily displaying that lower limit in the form of large black numbers in a natty red circle, à la... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3150775,-0.74488...
Red Devil said:
Your last sentence is a classic non-sequitur. For a start the relevant legislation makes no such stipulation.
Look again: a bit closer. It's not just grass: there is also a concrete kerb over which the former has encroached.
As for a crossover, only an armco or concrete barrier will help prevent such occurrences.
Current construction is likely to have one or the other. There is plenty of older stuff which doesn't.
You can find examples all over the UK if you care to search.
I can't make it a kerb there, but I'll take your word for it. Look again: a bit closer. It's not just grass: there is also a concrete kerb over which the former has encroached.
As for a crossover, only an armco or concrete barrier will help prevent such occurrences.
Current construction is likely to have one or the other. There is plenty of older stuff which doesn't.
You can find examples all over the UK if you care to search.
The point remains, does a kerb with some grass equal a barrier or whatever the necessary wording is (wording which is, apparently, imprecisely defined)?
What about if there was no kerb? Or kerb only on one side? Or no kerb but small shrubs instead?
I see the 'it's a limit not a target argument', but that's not really good enough. A failure by the very authority which prosecutes us to correctly and sufficiently precisely lay down exactly how it is we must and must not behave really cannot be obviated by that authority telling us, 'hard luck, you should have erred on the side of caution'.
ferrariF50lover said:
Red Devil said:
Your last sentence is a classic non-sequitur. For a start the relevant legislation makes no such stipulation.
Look again: a bit closer. It's not just grass: there is also a concrete kerb over which the former has encroached.
As for a crossover, only an armco or concrete barrier will help prevent such occurrences.
Current construction is likely to have one or the other. There is plenty of older stuff which doesn't.
You can find examples all over the UK if you care to search.
I can't make it a kerb there, but I'll take your word for it. Look again: a bit closer. It's not just grass: there is also a concrete kerb over which the former has encroached.
As for a crossover, only an armco or concrete barrier will help prevent such occurrences.
Current construction is likely to have one or the other. There is plenty of older stuff which doesn't.
You can find examples all over the UK if you care to search.
The point remains, does a kerb with some grass equal a barrier or whatever the necessary wording is (wording which is, apparently, imprecisely defined)?
What about if there was no kerb? Or kerb only on one side? Or no kerb but small shrubs instead?
I see the 'it's a limit not a target argument', but that's not really good enough. A failure by the very authority which prosecutes us to correctly and sufficiently precisely lay down exactly how it is we must and must not behave really cannot be obviated by that authority telling us, 'hard luck, you should have erred on the side of caution'.
Cat said:
A "central reservation" is defined as:
Cat
See the part in bold, the OR option. Any land between two carriageways, so grass no kerbs with or without shrubs qualifies.TSRGD 2016 said:
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Number of lanes is irrelevant and there is no definition of what the "permanent work" must be.(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Cat
Waits for the usual deliberate obtuse questions like, but an area of tarmac covered in white paint is any land. No it isn't, it's the same surface of a single carriageway, just covered in paint.
The grey area as mentioned previously is the definition of when a traffic island becomes a central reservation, but as before in practical application of the rules for enforcement has this ever been an issue? I suggest it never has.
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