Red Light - Emergency Vehicle Defence?
Discussion
Gavia said:
JumboBeef said:
I'm a Paramedic so I think I know about this 
Google Red Mist in emergency driving. Forcing cars through red lights to get to an emergency is a good example of Red Mist.
No job, even those very rare jobs where every minute counts, is worth putting other road users at risk. At worse, you might kill someone. At best, if there is a bump without injury, the ambulance HAS to stop and so cannot proceed to the original emergency.
It is not about 'getting the driver into bother', it is about re-educating the driver about intelligent use of lights and sirens, ie: switch them off when you can't make progress.
Still don't see your point, it seems to be to just wait for the lights to turn green. Why even bother spending money on lights and livery on your vehicle?Google Red Mist in emergency driving. Forcing cars through red lights to get to an emergency is a good example of Red Mist.
No job, even those very rare jobs where every minute counts, is worth putting other road users at risk. At worse, you might kill someone. At best, if there is a bump without injury, the ambulance HAS to stop and so cannot proceed to the original emergency.
It is not about 'getting the driver into bother', it is about re-educating the driver about intelligent use of lights and sirens, ie: switch them off when you can't make progress.
So, 95% of the time, lights/sirens help to make progress, the final 5% of the time they actually hinder progress. So switch them off for a minute or two for the safety of others, then once clear of the hazard, put them back and make progress.
hstewie said:To the OP. You did the right thing.
I've been a paramedic for 19 years.
I never ever try and force anyone through a red light. You probably had moved across enough for an ambulance to get past.
But sadly. Just because someone is behind the wheel of one doesn't mean they are good drivers!
I've been a paramedic for 19 years.
I never ever try and force anyone through a red light. You probably had moved across enough for an ambulance to get past.
But sadly. Just because someone is behind the wheel of one doesn't mean they are good drivers!
Edited by chrisgtx on Sunday 16th April 07:20
Sadly some ambulance drivers don't, or are taught not to, go for gap that is there.
Example; A year or so ago I was on a 30mph 2 lane with a bus lane as lane one in operation. Train of cars all doing 30 ish with me as the last in the train, ambulance with blues comes up behind. I wait as I expect it to use the bus lane and go underneath us all, nope, it sits for a few seconds. I give a couple of flashes of right indicator, still sits right behind me. By this time the cars infront have seen the ambulance and peel into the bus lane, I give up and peel left to tuck in behind the other cars.
The bus lane continued for another 3/4-a mile with no busses in it, but the ambulance decided to just sit behind and wait for us to move left into the active bus lane, I can kinda see why, but it's just not logical.
Example; A year or so ago I was on a 30mph 2 lane with a bus lane as lane one in operation. Train of cars all doing 30 ish with me as the last in the train, ambulance with blues comes up behind. I wait as I expect it to use the bus lane and go underneath us all, nope, it sits for a few seconds. I give a couple of flashes of right indicator, still sits right behind me. By this time the cars infront have seen the ambulance and peel into the bus lane, I give up and peel left to tuck in behind the other cars.
The bus lane continued for another 3/4-a mile with no busses in it, but the ambulance decided to just sit behind and wait for us to move left into the active bus lane, I can kinda see why, but it's just not logical.
I thought about this recently whilst walking in to town. There were temporary lights for a stretch of road, which was down to a single lane because of roadworks on one side. As one side of traffic was making its way through the works, they were met head on by a police car with lights and sirens. I watched as each car dutifully pulled up onto the pavement to get out of the way (some had to put almost the entire car on the pavement), and the police car moved on quickly.
Quick thinking by the drivers, all did so very deliberately and safely. What I noted however was that the policeman in the passenger seat was gesturing for people to drive on the pavement, giving the 'get out the way' type hand waving. Does that fall under following the instruction of a police officer? If at a red light you get one behind you gesturing wildly for you to move forward, are you covered?
I'd just pull through the red anyway, so it doesn't matter much for me.
Quick thinking by the drivers, all did so very deliberately and safely. What I noted however was that the policeman in the passenger seat was gesturing for people to drive on the pavement, giving the 'get out the way' type hand waving. Does that fall under following the instruction of a police officer? If at a red light you get one behind you gesturing wildly for you to move forward, are you covered?
I'd just pull through the red anyway, so it doesn't matter much for me.
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I'd just pull through the red anyway, so it doesn't matter much for me.
The problem comes, as mentioned earlier, when there's a red light camera.If caught by it you can take your chance with 'getting off' a penalty by arguing it in court. That may work, but there are many examples of the penalty being upheld.
Granted, the chances of being in that predicament multiple times are very slim but what do you do the second time if you've already taken 3 points for going through a red...
PorkInsider said:
The problem comes, as mentioned earlier, when there's a red light camera.
If caught by it you can take your chance with 'getting off' a penalty by arguing it in court. That may work, but there are many examples of the penalty being upheld.
Granted, the chances of being in that predicament multiple times are very slim but what do you do the second time if you've already taken 3 points for going through a red...
Admittedly I was very black and white in that statement. In the situation there's an element of judgement, and you'd hope that come the court date the judge would exercise similar judgement.If caught by it you can take your chance with 'getting off' a penalty by arguing it in court. That may work, but there are many examples of the penalty being upheld.
Granted, the chances of being in that predicament multiple times are very slim but what do you do the second time if you've already taken 3 points for going through a red...
I also think there's a difference between going through a red and going through a red. To create a gap big enough to get a car through is moving a few feet, whereas I've seen people go through the light for a car and then carry on through the junction.
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I thought about this recently whilst walking in to town. There were temporary lights for a stretch of road, which was down to a single lane because of roadworks on one side. As one side of traffic was making its way through the works, they were met head on by a police car with lights and sirens. I watched as each car dutifully pulled up onto the pavement to get out of the way (some had to put almost the entire car on the pavement), and the police car moved on quickly.
That would have been awkward for me. With 40 profile tyres and a fairy low front bumper, i don't do kerbs.ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
PorkInsider said:
The problem comes, as mentioned earlier, when there's a red light camera.
If caught by it you can take your chance with 'getting off' a penalty by arguing it in court. That may work, but there are many examples of the penalty being upheld.
Granted, the chances of being in that predicament multiple times are very slim but what do you do the second time if you've already taken 3 points for going through a red...
Admittedly I was very black and white in that statement. In the situation there's an element of judgement, and you'd hope that come the court date the judge would exercise similar judgement.If caught by it you can take your chance with 'getting off' a penalty by arguing it in court. That may work, but there are many examples of the penalty being upheld.
Granted, the chances of being in that predicament multiple times are very slim but what do you do the second time if you've already taken 3 points for going through a red...
I also think there's a difference between going through a red and going through a red. To create a gap big enough to get a car through is moving a few feet, whereas I've seen people go through the light for a car and then carry on through the junction.
Had this once in London Sat in front of queue on a red on a cross roads, plod machine comes up behind lights and sirens. I dont move
because
1) there may be a camera
2) i cannot see what approaching traffic there is from the other road and i dont ant to pull in front of anything in case there is a collision
meanwhile plod gets out of car a shouts at me to move.i point to light and tell him when that goes to green. He just walked back to car and turned of everything. lights changed i pull forwrd and over, he blasts through.
nothing heard about disobeying a police officer, and since then i have been told it has to be a policeman who is on traffic direction duty, not any old plod.
And the other week going along the A329 where there is a cycle lane i am in the bus i had a panda up my chuff, who then shot past waving his fist,He couldnt see the cyclist in the cycle lane in front of me, so i just kept station and let him pass me,when he deemed it was safe,
Again the silence was noticeable.You cannot be done for driving within the law and obeying road signs and marked lanes.
Retroman said:
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I thought about this recently whilst walking in to town. There were temporary lights for a stretch of road, which was down to a single lane because of roadworks on one side. As one side of traffic was making its way through the works, they were met head on by a police car with lights and sirens. I watched as each car dutifully pulled up onto the pavement to get out of the way (some had to put almost the entire car on the pavement), and the police car moved on quickly.
That would have been awkward for me. With 40 profile tyres and a fairy low front bumper, i don't do kerbs.Jumping up and down in your seat while waving your arms about does not constitute directing traffic, uniformed or not.
I suggest certain members look at HC 219 and blue light aware video.
Unfortunately for me i regularly drive past a local hospital which south east coast ambulance service go to. Bluntly the driving from a number of their drivers is low in standard.
The number of near incidents caused by their drivers is insane. Weekend just gone one right behind a vehicle to my left changed from normal sirens to the wailing one to bully another car to my left through a red light. I do nothing now and just ignore them until i can do something whilst complying with all traffic signs and not mounting the kerb (note 219 does only state avoid mounting the kerb).
The most stupid recent incident was not long back temporary traffic lights on a blind 40 mph bend. Our side on red to go the wrong side around the roadworks, other side flowing with a lot of cars...ambulance coming from our way bullies through the oncoming traffic forcing some people on to the grass verge.
Honestly in the previous year i have written probably 5 complaints to SECAMB about bad driving by ambulance drivers in no other word than to describe it as "bullying" other road users into not complying or carrying out dangerous actions.
Unfortunately, many do believe they are God (which is amusing considering the mess in the previous few years SECAMB has found itself in).
As for those that say my morals are misplaced a) tbh it does make sense in a way as so many people are incapable of thinking for themselves b) they have brought this on themselves ultimately drivers are only complying with the law like it or not. c) my OH works at the local hospital (and has told me on more than one occasion that the ambulance drivers are among the worst staff for thinking they are god like (excluding some of the senior management elements for a moment))
Unfortunately for me i regularly drive past a local hospital which south east coast ambulance service go to. Bluntly the driving from a number of their drivers is low in standard.
The number of near incidents caused by their drivers is insane. Weekend just gone one right behind a vehicle to my left changed from normal sirens to the wailing one to bully another car to my left through a red light. I do nothing now and just ignore them until i can do something whilst complying with all traffic signs and not mounting the kerb (note 219 does only state avoid mounting the kerb).
The most stupid recent incident was not long back temporary traffic lights on a blind 40 mph bend. Our side on red to go the wrong side around the roadworks, other side flowing with a lot of cars...ambulance coming from our way bullies through the oncoming traffic forcing some people on to the grass verge.
Honestly in the previous year i have written probably 5 complaints to SECAMB about bad driving by ambulance drivers in no other word than to describe it as "bullying" other road users into not complying or carrying out dangerous actions.
Unfortunately, many do believe they are God (which is amusing considering the mess in the previous few years SECAMB has found itself in).
As for those that say my morals are misplaced a) tbh it does make sense in a way as so many people are incapable of thinking for themselves b) they have brought this on themselves ultimately drivers are only complying with the law like it or not. c) my OH works at the local hospital (and has told me on more than one occasion that the ambulance drivers are among the worst staff for thinking they are god like (excluding some of the senior management elements for a moment))
If there is a SAFE space to move into over the stop line then it is simple = MOVE INTO IT
You will not get prosecuted unless you are like the odd silly few who did not contend a NIP which was inadvertently issued
For those who say they will not move then I ask this - would you move if you knew the blue lighter was in regards to your most cherished ? or if it was a artic behind who obviously was not going to stop short enough ?
You will not get prosecuted unless you are like the odd silly few who did not contend a NIP which was inadvertently issued
For those who say they will not move then I ask this - would you move if you knew the blue lighter was in regards to your most cherished ? or if it was a artic behind who obviously was not going to stop short enough ?
R0G said:
If there is a SAFE space to move into over the stop line then it is simple = MOVE INTO IT
You will not get prosecuted unless you are like the odd silly few who did not contend a NIP which was inadvertently issued
For those who say they will not move then I ask this - would you move if you knew the blue lighter was in regards to your most cherished ? or if it was a artic behind who obviously was not going to stop short enough ?
People have contested it and lost in court. Not just a "silly few". Fact of the matter is the HC and other sources specifically state "....whilst complying with all traffic signs." or words to that description. You will not get prosecuted unless you are like the odd silly few who did not contend a NIP which was inadvertently issued
For those who say they will not move then I ask this - would you move if you knew the blue lighter was in regards to your most cherished ? or if it was a artic behind who obviously was not going to stop short enough ?
Do not bring the moral/emotional aspect (like so many do) into this as ultimately there is proper policy and procedures in place to avoid the average driver not being in danger themselves (or put in danger themselves). Either way these drivers do not have anything to draw attention to themselves nor in many cases further driver training beyond passing the basic test.
If I am going to bite there is a simple statement, I would want the emergency services to do all they could [legally] do. If someone did cause an incident by being pushed through then the emergency vehicle is only going to delayed more.
As for HGV then that simply comes down to prior planning like tyres and tarmac and many other sensible planning.
R0G said:
You will not get prosecuted unless you are like the odd silly few who did not contend a NIP which was inadvertently issued
On what basis are you able to offer this guarantee, and can you provide a reference to where the law says that I may do this? Or some other kind of legal precedent?Show me something that 100% means I can go through a red light in order to make passage for an emergency vehicle and absolutely will not be prosecuted for it, and I'm happy to do it.
Ninja59 said:
People have contested it and lost in court. Not just a "silly few". Fact of the matter is the HC and other sources specifically state "....whilst complying with all traffic signs." or words to that description
Do you have links? I've seen a few Daily Mail style article in the past such as "Driver fined after letting police through red light!" But these were all automatic fines that were quashed on informing court an emergency service vehicle was there. It's one of those areas where what seems like common sense buts against legislation catering for the lowest common denominator.
For all the "how would you feel if your loved one was in the back" type responses... how would you feel if your loved one felt compelled to move out of the way of an ambulance at reds, and became involved in a serious traffic collision?
We can all play that game.
For me, i'll make a judgement call should I ever find myself waiting at lights for an ambulance.
But generally I try to plan forward. Those blue lights are usually pretty obvious from a long way back... If I know I'm approaching lights that are likely to turn red, I'll make appropriate plans to allow the emergency vehicle through without needing to put myself at risk.
For all the "how would you feel if your loved one was in the back" type responses... how would you feel if your loved one felt compelled to move out of the way of an ambulance at reds, and became involved in a serious traffic collision?
We can all play that game.
For me, i'll make a judgement call should I ever find myself waiting at lights for an ambulance.
But generally I try to plan forward. Those blue lights are usually pretty obvious from a long way back... If I know I'm approaching lights that are likely to turn red, I'll make appropriate plans to allow the emergency vehicle through without needing to put myself at risk.
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