Red Light - Emergency Vehicle Defence?

[InitialDave]

People seem to get very worked up that some of us aren't willing to risk points and a fine based on strangers on the internet making statements couched in wording such as "likely" and "probably".

If you're right and we're wrong, support your claims with evidence. Something in law that says it's a viable defence.

At the moment, it's like saying you can do 75 in a 70 on the motorway and you'll never get booked for it. Is that likely to be true? Yeah, I'd say so. Can I guarantee it, and back it up with something that'll get you off if caught? No, I can't.

[vonhosen]

InitialDave said:

People seem to get very worked up that some of us aren't willing to risk points and a fine based on strangers on the internet making statements couched in wording such as "likely" and "probably".

If you're right and we're wrong, support your claims with evidence. Something in law that says it's a viable defence.

At the moment, it's like saying you can do 75 in a 70 on the motorway and you'll never get booked for it. Is that likely to be true? Yeah, I'd say so. Can I guarantee it, and back it up with something that'll get you off if caught? No, I can't.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204944/Driver-gets-60-fine-moving-yard-red-light-let-police-van-999-pass.html

Here's someone who got points. Now he 'might' have got off at court, nobody can know for sure what the court would do.
What people can know for sure, in light of cases like this, is whether they'd personally subject themselves to it. It's a matter of personal choice like all these things. If people are happy to then that's their choice & if they aren't then that's their choice too. Each to their own & I can sympathise with whichever way they decide to go.

[HantsRat]

Again it's pretty simple. Yes it's illegal but you would be very unlucky to get dragged into court for this. If you did and it wasn't dropped at Police level, mitigating circumstances would most likely work in your favour. Depends on the magistrate.

It's all about common sense and whether it is safe and appropriate to allow them to pass. If the red light had no camera and was safe to do so I would always go through it if there was no other way for the emergency vehicle to pass.

Some drivers would some wouldn't. Personal preference.

I wouldn't be booking anyone for it and have yet to hear of anyone to be booked for it. I would say about 90% of drivers I come across move over the line in congested areas to allow me to pass on a daily basis. Rural location and larger roads most don't as there is plenty of room for me to pass. If drivers don't move over the line in congested areas, we just move when we can, no issue.

[Ninja59]

HantsRat said:

Again it's pretty simple. Yes it's illegal but you would be very unlucky to get dragged into court for this. If you did and it wasn't dropped at Police level, mitigating circumstances would most likely work in your favour. Depends on the magistrate.

It's all about common sense and whether it is safe and appropriate to allow them to pass. If the red light had no camera and was safe to do so I would always go through it if there was no other way for the emergency vehicle to pass.

Some drivers would some wouldn't. Personal preference.

I wouldn't be booking anyone for it and have yet to hear of anyone to be booked for it. I would say about 90% of drivers I come across move over the line in congested areas to allow me to pass on a daily basis. Rural location and larger roads most don't as there is plenty of room for me to pass. If drivers don't move over the line in congested areas, we just move when we can, no issue.

Actually Mark Freeman from Doncaster did get dragged into court twice...on both occasions pleading not guilty.

On the third time he pleaded guilty only because of mounting costs.

The entire issue here is unfortunately it is down to particular force area, camera partnership etc. and whether there is any will to prosecute. When the response is filled with "should", "could" etc. there is no certainty of no prosecution.

For me personally knowing that my DL allows me to earn then a "bullying" emergency vehicle can frankly sod off, when the law is clear and in no way am I purposefully holding an emergency vehicle up.

Added to is so many of these apparently "highly trained" emergency drivers around here at least, do some of the stupidest driving manoeuvres. I think a fair proportion of the bullying is prompted by silly government targets and the red mist appearing.

[speedking31]

Bus Lane, so not at all relevant. Except that the common sense approach seems to have been forgotten, even with photo evidence. And arguable transgressing a bus lane is far less serious than transgressing a red traffic light.

[Gavia]

vonhosen said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204944/Dr...

Here's someone who got points. Now he 'might' have got off at court, nobody can know for sure what the court would do.
What people can know for sure, in light of cases like this, is whether they'd personally subject themselves to it. It's a matter of personal choice like all these things. If people are happy to then that's their choice & if they aren't then that's their choice too. Each to their own & I can sympathise with whichever way they decide to go.

I can't see a police van in his photo that apparently is "clearly in view". He should've gone to court. Accepting a penalty from a fixed camera seems a bit daft to me as that can't tell the whole circumstances. Obviously the police van will have triggered the camera too, although it does seem to be invisible.

[speedking31]

HantsRat said:

Simply put, if you go through a red light with no camera, nothing will happen. If you go through one with a camera you will probably get an automated letter but appeal this with evidence and it'll most likely be binned.

Therein lies the problem. Unless the driver has a dashcam, he has no evidence.

[Gavia]

speedking31 said:

herein lies the problem. Unless the driver has a dashcam, he has no evidence.

Of course he does. The emergency vehicle will trigger the camera too so ask for that to support his case

[PAULJ5555]

jan8p said:

Any Police Officer can direct traffic, regardless of their 'role'. Some powers stipulate 'in uniform'.

But if you get flashed by a red light camera/bus lane camera its tough luck/

[Cold]

Gavia said:

speedking31 said:

herein lies the problem. Unless the driver has a dashcam, he has no evidence.

Of course he does. The emergency vehicle will trigger the camera too so ask for that to support his case

"Sorry sir, unless you and not just your car are actually in the picture we can't release the image to you. Data protection and all that, /sniff/. Anyway, it's all been deleted by now. But we have cashed your cheque, thank you."

[JumboBeef]

Gavia said:

speedking31 said:

herein lies the problem. Unless the driver has a dashcam, he has no evidence.

Of course he does. The emergency vehicle will trigger the camera too so ask for that to support his case

Not necessarily. Cars might cross the line and get flashed but by the the the emergency vehicle gets there it has turned green.

[Gavia]

Cold said:

"Sorry sir, unless you and not just your car are actually in the picture we can't release the image to you. Data protection and all that, /sniff/. Anyway, it's all been deleted by now. But we have cashed your cheque, thank you."

What cheque? I'm going to court.

[Gavia]

JumboBeef said:

Not necessarily. Cars might cross the line and get flashed but by the the the emergency vehicle gets there it has turned green.

Fantastic. So now we're on the almost daily occurrence of a red light at a set where here's a camera with an emergency vehicle behind and you go through on red but then it runs green before the emergency vehicle gets there.

Any more? What about a meteor hitting just behind your car and nudging you 0.00001mm over the line?

[vonhosen]

Gavia said:

vonhosen said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204944/Dr...

Here's someone who got points. Now he 'might' have got off at court, nobody can know for sure what the court would do.
What people can know for sure, in light of cases like this, is whether they'd personally subject themselves to it. It's a matter of personal choice like all these things. If people are happy to then that's their choice & if they aren't then that's their choice too. Each to their own & I can sympathise with whichever way they decide to go.

I can't see a police van in his photo that apparently is "clearly in view". He should've gone to court. Accepting a penalty from a fixed camera seems a bit daft to me as that can't tell the whole circumstances. Obviously the police van will have triggered the camera too, although it does seem to be invisible.

As I said, some people may not want to have the aggro of having to defend their actions. If they sit there & don't move they haven't got to put all that effort in. 'If' the case is dropped in the end or they are cleared is immaterial in that, it's that the ball starts rolling with a NIP getting sent out in the first place that is material to the fact they are going to have to put themselves out & on the line.

That results in me understanding why they don't do it.

Each person can choose what they want to do & I don't have a problem with that.

[surveyor_101]

HantsRat said:

Again it's pretty simple. Yes it's illegal but you would be very unlucky to get dragged into court for this. If you did and it wasn't dropped at Police level, mitigating circumstances would most likely work in your favour. Depends on the magistrate.

It's all about common sense and whether it is safe and appropriate to allow them to pass. If the red light had no camera and was safe to do so I would always go through it if there was no other way for the emergency vehicle to pass.

Some drivers would some wouldn't. Personal preference.

I wouldn't be booking anyone for it and have yet to hear of anyone to be booked for it. I would say about 90% of drivers I come across move over the line in congested areas to allow me to pass on a daily basis. Rural location and larger roads most don't as there is plenty of room for me to pass. If drivers don't move over the line in congested areas, we just move when we can, no issue.

Bluelightaware makes it pretty clear that a number of emergency services agree with their advice. That is not to contravene redlight traffic lights for blue light vehicles. Its exposing yourself to danger, no other time would most people think its ok to jump a red. More emergency service drivers should stand down sound and noise in these types of situation to avoid creating an accident, as people tend to panic.

[surveyor_101]

vonhosen said:

As I said, some people may not want to have the aggro of having to defend their actions. If they sit there & don't move they haven't got to put all that effort in. 'If' the case is dropped in the end or they are cleared is immaterial in that, it's that the ball starts rolling with a NIP getting sent out in the first place that is material to the fact they are going to have to put themselves out & on the line.

That results in me understanding why they don't do it.

Each person can choose what they want to do & I don't have a problem with that.

I don't agree.

I don't want people deciding in a panic to risk jumping red lights for blue light vehicles. I don't think its fair to expect them to. You don't risk a life to save a life that was what I was also told. The Emergency service driver is trained to make save progress and also how to deal with ATS and stationary traffic. Let the trained driver make safe progress as they have been trained to do.

[Cold]

Gavia said:

What cheque? I'm going to court.

Why? Why the hell would you do all that when adhering to what the law and what the majority of blue lighters suggest would mean you would never have to?
Bonkers.

[bitchstewie]

I was more curious how likely they would be to believe me if anything should come of it?

I'd assumed "There was a Police Car" is a pretty common excuse?

[vonhosen]

surveyor_101 said:

vonhosen said:

As I said, some people may not want to have the aggro of having to defend their actions. If they sit there & don't move they haven't got to put all that effort in. 'If' the case is dropped in the end or they are cleared is immaterial in that, it's that the ball starts rolling with a NIP getting sent out in the first place that is material to the fact they are going to have to put themselves out & on the line.

That results in me understanding why they don't do it.

Each person can choose what they want to do & I don't have a problem with that.

I don't agree.

I don't want people deciding in a panic to risk jumping red lights for blue light vehicles. I don't think its fair to expect them to. You don't risk a life to save a life that was what I was also told. The Emergency service driver is trained to make save progress and also how to deal with ATS and stationary traffic. Let the trained driver make safe progress as they have been trained to do.

I have not said that blue light users should force them through, they shouldn't.
But the only way you can be sure that people won't move through for blue lights is not to have blue lights in the first place & I don't want to see that. If we have them then some people will end up going through because of them, even if the blue lights user was going to turn them off before they actually got to the junction, or even if they offsided to pass the traffic. It will happen at times because they either see them early or misjudge the blue light users intended course.

The current training (for forces I am aware of) is to either offside with lights/tones if safe or where you can't, sit back & turn off tones/lights to diffuse the situation & not apply undue pressure on the traffic ahead. If the drivers ahead stopped at the red light do however still decide to go into the junction, the blue light user should then reapply warning devices to try & afford them some protection by alerting cross traffic through lights/tones.

My earlier point was more in the vein that each driver is responsible for their own decision & action of going over the stop line or not. We can't stop them doing it & they are responsible for their decision to do so. It's ultimately them who makes that decision, not me or you.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 19th April 13:51

[Gavia]

Cold said:

Gavia said:

What cheque? I'm going to court.

Why? Why the hell would you do all that when adhering to what the law and what the majority of blue lighters suggest would mean you would never have to?
Bonkers.

Because I'd want to and I reckon I'd do OK.