Private/Council Litter Police - powers to arrest or detain?
Discussion
48k said:
The programme is called The Sheriffs are Coming specifically because it features Sheriffs (AKA High Court Enforcement Officers/HCEOs) not Bailiffs. HCEOs have more powers than Bailiffs (in England and Wales). Basically, you don't f
k about with Sheriffs.
You have never seen a single HCEO on that show. What you have seen is a EA (enforcement agent) - who is authorised by a HCEO. There are not that many HCEO's. Here is the list: https://www.hceoa.org.uk/members/authorised-member...k about with Sheriffs.If you are going to tell people the 101 you should get your ducks in a row. Also, as a matter of fact, you can f
k with them plenty - start by not opening your door. Then play around with interpleader claims. Usually a stat dec saying you are not the owner of goods is enough to make them give up the game. HantsRat said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
I doubt very much that littering is an offence subject to an arrest, therefore you could not be detained.
There is no such thing as arrestable and non arrestable offences anymore. Every offence is arrestable (Providing certain criteria is met) Littering will be arrestable as will failing to give your name to an enforcement officer as detailed in law here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
The arrest necessity would be name & address unknown or doubted. Police will search the individual after arrest and most probably find a wallet with their name & address then the necessity is no longer met as they have their name or if they decide to give their name they will be de-arrested.
The average Joe Bloggs couldn't arrest or detain as it's a summary only offence.
Whether the Police had any resources however to come out to such an event is another matter. It certainly wouldn't be a blue light run!
HR, thanks.
This is getting confusing. I think people are trying to establish weather a MOP could make a citizen's arrest for littering or doggy doo's and I suspect they can't. Neither could they arrest you for non production of I/D.
The complication seems to be whether the LA have somehow legally delegated powers for an EA to demand your name and address. I'd love to know how this could be confirmed.
This is getting confusing. I think people are trying to establish weather a MOP could make a citizen's arrest for littering or doggy doo's and I suspect they can't. Neither could they arrest you for non production of I/D.
The complication seems to be whether the LA have somehow legally delegated powers for an EA to demand your name and address. I'd love to know how this could be confirmed.
There is also the series on BBC about the A1 where we see Highways Officers using a wide range of powers, not all of which they have. Even if Kingdom's people are authorised officers, I am not sure under what power they can use bodycams legitimately. The police went through many hoops to gain approval from the information commissioner and the surveillance commissioner before they could do so.
hman said:
I hate people that drop litter, and also the ones that don't clear up after their dogs as well - if these guys get some good results in reducing this moronic acts then I am all for it.
Well saidI made the decision at 30 years old never to litter again.
It's easy.
Dog she ite is easily removed also
Just takes a bit of technique.
Toxocariasis
The reason why are there laws about allowing your dog to foul in public places but there aren’t any similar laws about other animals is quite simply because of toxocariasis.
Toxocariasis can cause serious illness, and can even lead to blindness. It is caused by a parasite, known as Toxocara Canis, also commonly referred to as Roundworm. The Toxocara Canis parasite lives in dogs’ digestive systems, and so dogs act as hosts for the parasite. Although foxes are also carriers of the parasite, they do not defecate in open spaces.
The parasites lay eggs, which are released via the infected dog’s faeces. The eggs can remain active in the soil for many years, long after the dog mess has been washed away by the rain. If the eggs are then ingested by someone, for example a small child, they may hatch into larvae and thus lead to toxocariasis. So, the child doesn’t necessarily have to pick up dog faeces in order to become infected – they could just be playing with soil which had dog faeces on it years ago and still contains active eggs.
That's why.
Boosted LS1 said:
Short Grain said:
Boosted LS1 said:
They're civilians like you or I so have no powers to detain for a littering offence imo. All they can do is follow you and hope a PC arrives. I don't think PCSO's can detain you either.
I've also noticed the bailiffs in 'Can't pay, we'll take it away' pulling a few strokes. They're from a private debt collection agency and nothing to do officially with the High Court apart from the fact they pick up jobs from there.
All in all these sorts are trying to look more official and threatening.
I thought Court Bailiffs were authorised / licenced by the High Court and had powers of entry and also seizure with the law behind them. .I've also noticed the bailiffs in 'Can't pay, we'll take it away' pulling a few strokes. They're from a private debt collection agency and nothing to do officially with the High Court apart from the fact they pick up jobs from there.
All in all these sorts are trying to look more official and threatening.
Debt Collection agents are private companies and are the ones with the dodgy tactics. The only TV programme I've seen with actual Bailiffs is The Sheriffs Are Coming. So the ones in 'can't pay' are just collection agents. Stand to be corrected though.
stuttgartmetal said:
hman said:
I hate people that drop litter, and also the ones that don't clear up after their dogs as well - if these guys get some good results in reducing this moronic acts then I am all for it.
Well saidI bloody hope not though..it's bad enough when busybodies are given speed cameras, imagine if they are offered a commission if they manage to get any money out of a driver they accuse of doing something wrong..
stuttgartmetal said:
Well said
I made the decision at 30 years old never to litter again.
It's easy.
Dog she ite is easily removed also
Just takes a bit of technique.
Toxocariasis
The reason why are there laws about allowing your dog to foul in public places but there aren’t any similar laws about other animals is quite simply because of toxocariasis.
Toxocariasis can cause serious illness, and can even lead to blindness. It is caused by a parasite, known as Toxocara Canis, also commonly referred to as Roundworm. The Toxocara Canis parasite lives in dogs’ digestive systems, and so dogs act as hosts for the parasite. Although foxes are also carriers of the parasite, they do not defecate in open spaces.
The parasites lay eggs, which are released via the infected dog’s faeces. The eggs can remain active in the soil for many years, long after the dog mess has been washed away by the rain. If the eggs are then ingested by someone, for example a small child, they may hatch into larvae and thus lead to toxocariasis. So, the child doesn’t necessarily have to pick up dog faeces in order to become infected – they could just be playing with soil which had dog faeces on it years ago and still contains active eggs.
That's why.
Dogs and Cats! Why are cat owners not forced to clean up after their pets?I made the decision at 30 years old never to litter again.
It's easy.
Dog she ite is easily removed also
Just takes a bit of technique.
Toxocariasis
The reason why are there laws about allowing your dog to foul in public places but there aren’t any similar laws about other animals is quite simply because of toxocariasis.
Toxocariasis can cause serious illness, and can even lead to blindness. It is caused by a parasite, known as Toxocara Canis, also commonly referred to as Roundworm. The Toxocara Canis parasite lives in dogs’ digestive systems, and so dogs act as hosts for the parasite. Although foxes are also carriers of the parasite, they do not defecate in open spaces.
The parasites lay eggs, which are released via the infected dog’s faeces. The eggs can remain active in the soil for many years, long after the dog mess has been washed away by the rain. If the eggs are then ingested by someone, for example a small child, they may hatch into larvae and thus lead to toxocariasis. So, the child doesn’t necessarily have to pick up dog faeces in order to become infected – they could just be playing with soil which had dog faeces on it years ago and still contains active eggs.
That's why.
HantsRat said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
I doubt very much that littering is an offence subject to an arrest, therefore you could not be detained.
There is no such thing as arrestable and non arrestable offences anymore. Every offence is arrestable (Providing certain criteria is met) Littering will be arrestable as will failing to give your name to an enforcement officer as detailed in law here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
The arrest necessity would be name & address unknown or doubted. Police will search the individual after arrest and most probably find a wallet with their name & address then the necessity is no longer met as they have their name or if they decide to give their name they will be de-arrested.
The average Joe Bloggs couldn't arrest or detain as it's a summary only offence.
Whether the Police had any resources however to come out to such an event is another matter. It certainly wouldn't be a blue light run!
My understanding then was that a "civilian arrest" was available but only to a civilian that had actually seen an appropriate offence (as opposed to suspecting one had occurred or believing one was about to occur).
Whether it counted as an arrestable offence depended partly on whether the accused could be identified (i.e. if there was no way of identifying then arrest was more likely to be a legitimate option) which fits with your description of how the police would deal now but doesn't confirm if a civilian (or contractor) could do the same.
Steve H said:
HantsRat said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
I doubt very much that littering is an offence subject to an arrest, therefore you could not be detained.
There is no such thing as arrestable and non arrestable offences anymore. Every offence is arrestable (Providing certain criteria is met) Littering will be arrestable as will failing to give your name to an enforcement officer as detailed in law here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
The arrest necessity would be name & address unknown or doubted. Police will search the individual after arrest and most probably find a wallet with their name & address then the necessity is no longer met as they have their name or if they decide to give their name they will be de-arrested.
The average Joe Bloggs couldn't arrest or detain as it's a summary only offence.
Whether the Police had any resources however to come out to such an event is another matter. It certainly wouldn't be a blue light run!
My understanding then was that a "civilian arrest" was available but only to a civilian that had actually seen an appropriate offence (as opposed to suspecting one had occurred or believing one was about to occur).
Whether it counted as an arrestable offence depended partly on whether the accused could be identified (i.e. if there was no way of identifying then arrest was more likely to be a legitimate option) which fits with your description of how the police would deal now but doesn't confirm if a civilian (or contractor) could do the same.
The police are civilians.
We are all civilians.
The Mad Monk said:
Your use of the word 'civilian' is incorrect. We have a civilian police service in this country.
The police are civilians.
We are all civilians.
Thanks for staying off topic and helping absolutely not at all with my question. Thinking about it, that used to be called a citizen arrest didn't it but I'm probably just giving you the chance to point out that police officers are citizens as well as civilians The police are civilians.
We are all civilians.
.As you apparently did not understand, I was asking what rights a non-police officer (civilian/citizen/general public/litter operative, pick your favourite) now has to put someone under arrest and how/if that has changed since PACE.
Soooooo, if anyone can actually answer the question...........
C70R said:
I (holding my hands up and accepting any criticism) was collared by such a womble, on behalf of Wandsworth council. I had dropped an apple core into a roadside drain in plain sight of him and his body camera. I was polite and pleasant, and he returned the same, and I took the £80 fine on the chin as a reminder of laziness.
However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
No repercussions at all. You should have got onto the tube train.However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
bad company said:
C70R said:
I (holding my hands up and accepting any criticism) was collared by such a womble, on behalf of Wandsworth council. I had dropped an apple core into a roadside drain in plain sight of him and his body camera. I was polite and pleasant, and he returned the same, and I took the £80 fine on the chin as a reminder of laziness.
However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
No repercussions at all. You should have got onto the tube train.However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
Basically the long and short of it is that if you do not want to give your name then you run before the litter person finds a copper who can ask for your name and arrest you if you refuse.
Boosted LS1 said:
^That assumes the employee is employed by the council. Does a sub contractor have the same powers? I'd take them all for a long walk :-)
No, it assumes the person is AUTHORISED by the council. The council clearly has an agreement with (in this case) Kingdom and will be authorising all their staff to carry out that function.The law states:
““authorised officer”, in relation to a litter authority, means—
(a)an employee of the authority who is authorised in writing by the authority for the purpose of giving notices under this section;
(b)any person who, in pursuance of arrangements made with the authority, has the function of giving such notices and is authorised in writing by the authority to perform that function; and
(c)any employee of such a person who is authorised in writing by the authority for the purpose of giving such notices;”
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