Soldiers vs Armed Police

[anonymous-user]

optimate said:

50 rounds from 8 police = 8 empty clips =
they shat there pants and emptied there guns and sprayed and prayed hitting a bystander as well

I'm often one of the first to criticise the police when I think they have overstepped the mark, but I'm afraid you're talking a whole lot of bks here.

[Zoobeef]

GC8 said:

Loyly said:

majordad said:

Soldier spends a lot more time on the firing range so IMHO soldier.

I very much doubt they do. That said, a soldier with combat experience will probably be more assured on fire, despite that being a terrifying ordeal by all accounts. That said, relatively few armed services personnel have that sort of experience.

Id expect an armed officer to have a lot more live firing experience than a lot of soldiers, if not most.

Yeah me to. Probably fired 10k+ rounds in a year and a half of afghans and Iraq, mostly gpmg with sa80, carbine, browning, sig and glock thrown in.
Since I got back last time in 2011 I've fired enough each year to zero and annual test the gpmg, carbine and glock (so not very much), (I'm talking live rounds, blanks are pointless).
I'd expect the police to fire a he'll of alot more each year.

[anonymous-user]

GC8 said:

Id expect an armed officer to have a lot more live firing experience than a lot of soldiers, if not most.

There are hugely experienced soldiers who have completed multiple operational tours and there are others who will never have used a weapon in anger.

In the same way I expect there are armed police officers who fit into similar brackets.

I can't speak for the police but all soldiers are mandated to pass an annual shooting test. Some people use more rounds than others!

Obviously there are many different weapons systems used depending on role and theatre of operations. It's not as simple as your binary statement.

[jogger1976]

I've been a PHer for a few years now and in that time I've red a lot of utter ste on the various forums.
But fk me, this thread wins the gold medal for ill informed, knee jerk bks.
Anyone criticising the Police given the current climate needs to take a long look at themselves, and if they think they could do a better job, then step away from your keyboard and step forward and put yourself (literally) in harm's way.

[louiechevy]

The police officers did not amazing job in I would imagine very difficult circumstances, no complaints from me.

[rambo19]

louiechevy said:

The police officers did not amazing job in I would imagine very difficult circumstances, no complaints from me.

+1

[jdw100]

rdjohn said:

I live in France and Spain, so it seems very normal to see every Policeman carry a small side-arm. It is common to be sat in a cafe and there be off duty police also enjoying a coffee and maybe keeping tabs on what is going on.. To me that is the big difference they seem to be part of the community, whereas in the UK they seem apart from the community.

.

My brother in law is a Policeman in Timor. Covers a reasonably large patch.

Part of his salary is performance based - not on number of arrests or crimes recorded but on the lack of trouble.

A good deal of his time is spent going to visit known trouble makers. Saturday in the day he might go and see the guys that like to get drunk and cause a fight on a Saturday night. He tells them they had better behave, not to go out maybe - he will be looking for them and will arrest them if they get drunk.

Been convicted of a theft - expect him to knock on your door to tell you that he is pleased you are staying out of trouble but he'll come down hard on you if you are thinking about stealing again.

He's also a mediator - sorted out a stabbing (crime of passion) the other week. Came home late covered in blood, a lady had found her husband having an affair and stabbed him.

He's sorted it so no prosecution needed, wife admits she was wrong, husband won't press charges if she leaves to go and live with family and they pay his medical costs.. Took him a few hours to sort it out but all parties are happy.

Well respected guy in the area. Kids love him but people know he won't hesitate to drag them off to prison if needed.

In line with your post above - just come back from our local shops at the crossroads (5 mins walk from our villa). Two officers have parked up there and are having coffee and a fag.

Often there, just keeping an eye on things. People go up and have a chat.

They've clearly clocked me a few times as one day I was walking past and one said 'hello sir where are you from?' Had a chat with them in my best Bahasa and English. They're establishing who I am, where I live etc... I asked them about their car (Mazda 6 3.0l), nice motor!

If I go past now its 'Good morning Sir how are you' They've noticed my wife is pregnant etc. Had a quick chat re that....

Not armed by the way. Nice bit of community policing - which we really have lost in UK.

Edited by jdw100 on Tuesday 6th June 06:02

[creampuff]

I think that the idea that Britain has policing by consent - and is better than everyone else - and other countries don't have policing by consent just because the police are armed with a pistol is silly.

[Derek Smith]

jdw100 said:

My brother in law is a Policeman in Timor. Covers a reasonably large patch.

Part of his salary is performance based - not on number of arrests or crimes recorded but on the lack of trouble.

A good deal of his time is spent going to visit known trouble makers. Saturday in the day he might go and see the guys that like to get drunk and cause a fight on a Saturday night. He tells them they had better behave, not to go out maybe - he will be looking for them and will arrest them if they get drunk.

Been convicted of a theft - expect him to knock on your door to tell you that he is pleased you are staying out of trouble but he'll come down hard on you if you are thinking about stealing again.

He's also a mediator - sorted out a stabbing (crime of passion) the other week. Came home late covered in blood, a lady had found her husband having an affair and stabbed him.

He's sorted it so no prosecution needed, wife admits she was wrong, husband won't press charges if she leaves to go and live with family and they pay his medical costs.. Took him a few hours to sort it out but all parties are happy.

Well respected guy in the area. Kids love him but people know he won't hesitate to drag them off to prison if needed.

In line with your post above - just come back from our local shops at the crossroads (5 mins walk from our villa). Two officers have parked up there and are having coffee and a fag.

Often there, just keeping an eye on things. People go up and have a chat.

They've clearly clocked me a few times as one day I was walking past and one said 'hello sir where are you from?' Had a chat with them in my best Bahasa and English. They're establishing who I am, where I live etc... I asked them about their car (Mazda 6 3.0l), nice motor!

If I go past now its 'Good morning Sir how are you' They've noticed my wife is pregnant etc. Had a quick chat re that....

Not armed by the way. Nice bit of community policing - which we really have lost in UK.

Edited by jdw100 on Tuesday 6th June 06:02

The model of policing which you describe has been attacked by various governments over the years. Many forces have tried to retain it but the reality has been that LBOs are a luxury forces can no longer afford.

Regarding the stabbing which 'your' police officer dealt with: if an English/Welsh officer sleeves such a job they will probably be dismissed. First of all with have a serious offence, indictable only so crown court, then we have domestic violence. I'm not sure I would prefer the Timor method over here. But if it works out there, all well and good.

[creampuff]

^ Is it East Timor or Indonesian Timor?

I wouldn't hold the Indonesian police up as an example to aspire to.

[jdw100]

creampuff said:

^ Is it East Timor or Indonesian Timor?

I wouldn't hold the Indonesian police up as an example to aspire to.

Indonesian Timor.

On the whole are lot of the Police are awful, although it's improving; driven by Jokowi and new Chief of Police. Got much harder now to bribe your way out of 'issues' than a few years ago.

However in terms of the local policing my BIL does (he's not out killing civilians in Papua) its not too bad. Works for them anyway.

I would absolutely not hold them up as the gold standard (or bronze or tin or any of the lesser metals for that matter) but I would say I like having some Police around who are approachable and visible. Also my general experience is I'd much rather interact with a copper here than a USA policeman.

We have the usual Ramadan crime wave on at the moment and it's reassuring to see some police around. They were very quick to respond to a burglary at a neighbours last week and had no issues that the couple who found the guy in their house at 02:00 had given him a good shoeing. Equally we've been stopped twice at police road checks (again due to the Ramadan crime wave) in the last few weeks - all very pleasant and polite.

I'm also aware that just seeing police at a cafe whether in Italy or Bali doesn't actually make me any safer in reality and its actual intelligence-led and fast reacting policework that probably is more effective. But.....it kind of does make me feel better.

I would also suggest that maybe (as per BIL) going and knocking on scrotes doors and telling them they'd better behave might be useful?

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

Regarding the stabbing which 'your' police officer dealt with: if an English/Welsh officer sleeves such a job they will probably be dismissed. First of all with have a serious offence, indictable only so crown court, then we have domestic violence. I'm not sure I would prefer the Timor method over here. But if it works out there, all well and good.

I was thinking the same thing. No wonder they have so much time if they have discretion to resolve domestic stabbings in such a manner!

I wonder how much tit-for-tat Facebook abuse rubbish they are obligated to get involved in. I think I probably know the answer.

[Zoobeef]

I wonder if the roles were reversed they still would have been talked out of getting the guilty party arrested.

[GC8]

bmw535i said:

There are hugely experienced soldiers who have completed multiple operational tours and there are others who will never have used a weapon in anger.

In the same way I expect there are armed police officers who fit into similar brackets.

I can't speak for the police but all soldiers are mandated to pass an annual shooting test. Some people use more rounds than others!

Obviously there are many different weapons systems used depending on role and theatre of operations. It's not as simple as your binary statement.

I thought about long-timers who had completed several eventful tours, but I believe that it is a very different sort of shooting. When I was still interested in shooting it was common for civilians to better army entrants at Bisley, because we got to shoot whenever we wanted. A luxury that soldiers seldom benefit from.

[Greendubber]

GC8 said:

bmw535i said:

There are hugely experienced soldiers who have completed multiple operational tours and there are others who will never have used a weapon in anger.

In the same way I expect there are armed police officers who fit into similar brackets.

I can't speak for the police but all soldiers are mandated to pass an annual shooting test. Some people use more rounds than others!

Obviously there are many different weapons systems used depending on role and theatre of operations. It's not as simple as your binary statement.

I thought about long-timers who had completed several eventful tours, but I believe that it is a very different sort of shooting. When I was still interested in shooting it was common for civilians to better army entrants at Bisley, because we got to shoot whenever we wanted. A luxury that soldiers seldom benefit from.

Our AFO's get plenty of training time on the ranges, they also have to complete quali shoots fairly often too.

I'd say police = more range time but obviously far less operational shooting compared to armed forces who have been to war, which is a good thing!

[creampuff]

La Liga said:

I wonder how much tit-for-tat Facebook abuse rubbish they are obligated to get involved in. I think I probably know the answer.

Like everywhere, there are good and bad coppers in Indonesia. I worked there for about a year and bent coppers were rampant. I think that has improved, but otoh you now have special squads rounding up people who have gone the gay way, for the reason that they have gone the gay way. The population of Irian Jaya and formerly East Timor also don't/didn't have much of a good time under Indonesian police or army.

Like I said, exceptions aside, I wouldn't put forward Indonesia as a good example of policing.

[creampuff]

I think a good metric is: "if you are a victim of crime, would you turn to the police for help?" In many countries, you would not.

But things are not all rosy in the UK either. The police may be trustworthy, but in many areas they are completely ineffective. There are now vigilante reprisals against scooter/motorbike thieves in London, because scooter crime is uncontrolled and the police do nothing about it. It has increased by about a factor of 10 in the space of a few years.

[Pothole]

Cbull said:

. It makes me feel very uneasy when seeing/being around them

It's a knee jerk reaction and is very unnecessary.

FTFY. (and your spelling)

[jdw100]

La Liga said:

was thinking the same thing. No wonder they have so much time if they have discretion to resolve domestic stabbings in such a manner!

I wonder how much tit-for-tat Facebook abuse rubbish they are obligated to get involved in. I think I probably know the answer.

Indonesia is the third biggest user of Facebook globally, smart phone penetration is high as well and it's very cheap to buy a phone and credit. I think I pay £6/mth for unlimited 4G.

I imagine though if you went to the Police about a nasty comment on Facebook they would laugh at you.

Re the stabbing - yes I had the same reaction initially. My sister in law explained it though that the lady was genuinely sorry, the husband admitted it was partly his fault and forgave his wife immediately.

There was a suitable solution to both parties and it kept the wife out of prison for what all parties viewed as a moment of anger/madness. Husband was happy to get his medical bills paid. No kids.

Deal approved by the local Head of Police.

Is she (wife) going to do it again.. ? Unlikely.

I'm not saying it's a better system at all, but it's a different way of doing things.

In relation to the topic of this thread, check out Densus 88 (sadly now embroiled in the Papua thing) to see why very little Islamic terrorism here. Again I'm in no way saying it's right or moral or a system the UK should look at.

[jdw100]

Zoobeef said:

I wonder if the roles were reversed they still would have been talked out of getting the guilty party arrested.

I don't know. I'll ask the question.

Okay, so my wife's opinion is it would have been a bit more difficult to resolve this way round but really depends on what the family of the injured party want.

In Timor people are a bit more, shall we say, feisty. Culturally there is an understanding that if you found your partner to be having an affair you might well lash out at them and/or the person they are cheating wth. If it's done in the heat of the moment people don't see that so much as an issue, if three months or a year later then you would be in proper trouble.

If in UK you return to find another man in bed with your wife and you beat him up - you're in trouble. Here, most people think he had it coming - you would be in much less trouble (unless guy is senior in police/military/government/mafia....then you might be in the st!)

Edited by jdw100 on Wednesday 7th June 03:28