Soldiers vs Armed Police

[grumpy52]

Pompeymedic said:

ellroy said:

On the subject of crab air.

Oi, I'll have you know that I once got a five round grouping in a 20p coin on a 25m with SUSAT. Shame it was the wrong lane...

I did get told the following day that I'd do more damage with my pistol if I took it out of its holster and threw it at the enemy

My old man was RAF for 32 years and had to do periodic range time and was classed as marksman standard .He was a musician all his service life and hated firearms but said if he had to use one then he would use it properly,he also knew his way around explosives as he handled them when he worked in the mines before joining up .
Still amazes me what I'm learning about him two years after he died .

[optimate]

they not give details about the device yet in Manchester but indicated it was more advanced than the shall crap

i suspect the primary was hdmt reading between the lines and the filler was smaller and a bit more advanced that a load of nitrate fertilizer possibly home made rdx or a lump of missing military explosive due to size of the blast

and not the normal fair light IED

[Osinjak]

optimate said:

Osinjak said:

Hyperbole much?

yes your very clever. you know a big word or two
but if you think its exaggeration look up the facts
before you try to be clever dick, have a valid point or opinion on the subject matter

Edited by optimate on Thursday 1st June 19:04

Ah, the kind of temperate reasoning that I love so much on PH.

[Greendubber]

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

[optimate]

Greendubber said:

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

exactly, only some wont pass id say quite a few more than that lol
the main cost is the training not the fire arm and 9mm rounds are cheap

trining some with no intrest or zero experience in fire arms and to use em them in combat on urban settings is very expensive and a pity bad idea

armed uniformed police in uk are mostly for show bar armed response
in a emergence and back up if there a op on

[optimate]

Greendubber said:

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

exactly, only some wont pass id say quite a few more than that lol
the main cost is the training not the fire arm and 9mm rounds are cheap

trining some with no intrest or zero experience in fire arms and to use em them in combat on urban settings is very expensive and a pity bad idea you every day bobby being armed is very very unlikely to stop any pre planed terrorist attack unless they get real lucky and are in the right place at right moment and its a lone loony

armed uniformed police in uk are mostly for show bar armed response
in a emergence and back up if there a op on

[Greendubber]

optimate said:

Greendubber said:

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

exactly, only some wont pass id say quite a few more than that lol
the main cost is the training not the fire arm and 9mm rounds are cheap

trining some with no intrest or zero experience in fire arms and to use em them in combat on urban settings is very expensive and a pity bad idea you every day bobby being armed is very very unlikely to stop any pre planed terrorist attack unless they get real lucky and are in the right place at right moment and its a lone loony

armed uniformed police in uk are mostly for show bar armed response
in a emergence and back up if there a op on

Armed police are not just for show.

[Cbull]

creampuff said:

I don't think you should have the army doing the job of the police. But you can blame the cutbacks on police budgets for that happening. Or maybe you can attribute the government wanting to appear strong in the days before a general election.

However, why do you think armed police or soldiers would be useless in the event of a terrorist attack? Terrorist attacks generally end when either the terrorist blows themselves up, or they are shot dead. Armed police may or may not help against a suicide bomber, however what about an armed (be it with a gun, knife, club or truck) terrorist. Are you suggesting that armed police aren't helpful. Are you suggesting that everybody wait around 5+ minutes while armed police do turn up. There is a saying: "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

Yes. Obiously in some circumstances you mention, it would absoloutly be benificial but that kind of situation simply doesn't happen enough times to warrant the implementation of most/all police holding a firearm. I was more referring to the likes of suicide bombers which (at the moment) seems to be the more popular way of doing things, most of the other tend to be 1 man bands or random crazy people without much of a plan (or so it seems).

Elroy Blue seems like a very level headed person but coming from personal experience not all police have the right mentality for the job. Police are people also, people can be wnkrs, that also means individual police men/woman can be wnkrs too. Some of them have the worst attitude because they have a badge, handcuffs and stick, imagine them with a gun. As mentioned, if a person is resisting an arrest for whatever reason, it will only be a matter of time before that police man/woman brings out his/her weapon because he will feel he has no choice incase the "criminal" over powers him. Obviosuly that's just 1 example, I can think of a dozen more. It's just wrong. If people witness these incidents then as mentioned it'll be a witch hunt and a discussion of what is resonable force.

I'm proud that we don't have to be like other countries and have armed police/army all over the place, it shows that this country is a nicer place to live and be.

I honestly don't know the ins and outs of the latest stories but I am now seeing that there is a large number of arrests being made after the incident. Most of these people are known. As I see it, being a little more pro-active with these kind of people is a must rather than waiting for something to happen and ask questions later.

[liner33]

Greendubber said:

optimate said:

Greendubber said:

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

exactly, only some wont pass id say quite a few more than that lol
the main cost is the training not the fire arm and 9mm rounds are cheap

trining some with no intrest or zero experience in fire arms and to use em them in combat on urban settings is very expensive and a pity bad idea you every day bobby being armed is very very unlikely to stop any pre planed terrorist attack unless they get real lucky and are in the right place at right moment and its a lone loony

armed uniformed police in uk are mostly for show bar armed response
in a emergence and back up if there a op on

Armed police are not just for show.

He didnt say just for show he said mostly for show , and he is correct . We do not regularly need the services of armed police on our streets

[Greendubber]

liner33 said:

Greendubber said:

optimate said:

Greendubber said:

People need to calm down.

The police will never, ever be fully armed in the UK.

Bobbies dont want it (the majority)
Its not how we operate
Some bobbies wont pass the training

The big nail in the coffin though is cost, its cost that taser isnt offered to everyone also.

They cant supply me with trousers let alone a firearm and ammo!

exactly, only some wont pass id say quite a few more than that lol
the main cost is the training not the fire arm and 9mm rounds are cheap

trining some with no intrest or zero experience in fire arms and to use em them in combat on urban settings is very expensive and a pity bad idea you every day bobby being armed is very very unlikely to stop any pre planed terrorist attack unless they get real lucky and are in the right place at right moment and its a lone loony

armed uniformed police in uk are mostly for show bar armed response
in a emergence and back up if there a op on

Armed police are not just for show.

He didnt say just for show he said mostly for show , and he is correct . We do not regularly need the services of armed police on our streets

Ours are busy all day every day. Thats from pre planned operations to and live jobs.

So not just for show, they are performing a vital role on a daily basis so very much needed on a very regular basis.

Edited by Greendubber on Friday 2nd June 15:50

[grumpy52]

It's strange the difference in expected attitude for different police roles .
A family friend who was with Thames Valley Police wanted to join trafpol,did all the courses and was near the top in everything but was not deemed mature enough in attitude . His job at the time was Diplomatic and Royalty protection, looking after the Queen mum or Geoffrey Howe and was always armed .
Mature enough for a gun but not a 3ltr Vauxhall .

[rdjohn]

I live in France and Spain, so it seems very normal to see every Policeman carry a small side-arm. It is common to be sat in a cafe and there be off duty police also enjoying a coffee and maybe keeping tabs on what is going on.. To me that is the big difference they seem to be part of the community, whereas in the UK they seem apart from the community.

We do not allow people onto a building site without personal protection equipment, but routinely expect police patrols to turn up to a domestic and end up getting stabbed with a kitchen knife.

With anti-terror measures, it is again normal for us to see armed troops checking car parks, borders etc, but then there is never interaction with the public. Having heavily armed Police walking round the airport or arenas with big guns clutched to their chest hardly makes them approachable.

I am not sure the UK has the right balance.

[liner33]

Greendubber said:

Ours are busy all day every day. Thats from pre planned operations to and live jobs.

So not just for show, they are performing a vital role on a daily basis so very much needed on a very regular basis.

Edited by Greendubber on Friday 2nd June 15:50

Yes often employed doing tasks a normal bobby could, should (and always used to) do, the stats dont lie UK police rarely use their weapons, 7 times in 2016

Yes they have an important role but in most cases they are used for a tasks that were always undertaken by normal officers

[creampuff]

I've lived in several countries. The UK is the only one without armed police. The UK is also the only place I've lived where petty theft is way out of hand. I doubt armed police will fix that; but people on this thread who think the U.K. has got it right while everyone else has got it wrong, they are living in dreamland.

[Elroy Blue]

liner33 said:

Yes often employed doing tasks a normal bobby could, should (and always used to) do, the stats dont lie UK police rarely use their weapons, 7 times in 2016

Yes they have an important role but in most cases they are used for a tasks that were always undertaken by normal officers

I'm not sure where your getting your starts. We work very closely with current ARVs and armed stops are very frequent. The fact they're done I well, means they are almost routine and not noteworthy in the slightest.

[Greendubber]

liner33 said:

Greendubber said:

Ours are busy all day every day. Thats from pre planned operations to and live jobs.

So not just for show, they are performing a vital role on a daily basis so very much needed on a very regular basis.

Edited by Greendubber on Friday 2nd June 15:50

Yes often employed doing tasks a normal bobby could, should (and always used to) do, the stats dont lie UK police rarely use their weapons, 7 times in 2016

Yes they have an important role but in most cases they are used for a tasks that were always undertaken by normal officers

I'm sorry but you are mistaken, I see it every day, your stats mean they dont fire their weapons. There are loads of jobs that can only be carried out by armed officers.

Normal officers are not executing firearms warrants on a daily basis. Armed containment of houses and armed search to contact is only done by armed officers.

Unarmed officers are not carrying out MAST ops (mobile armed surveillance teams) on armed nominals.

There's load more that they do also, but I'll await being told I am wrong again, even though a lot of mates and a family member are armed officers and do the job every day and I also work with them on a nearly daily basis.

95% of their work is only suitable for them, the other 5% is made up of medic related work (trauma care at RTC's) and maybe stopping the odd car before asking someone else to come and deal with it.

Edited by Greendubber on Saturday 3rd June 16:57

[anonymous-user]

optimate said:

Out of the total 150,000 officers in the 39 territorial police forces in England, 6,500 are trained in the use of firearms. 2,500 of them are in service with the Metropolitan Police.

We wish there were 150,000 across the 39 forces in E&W.

There's actually under 130,000 across 43, unfortunately.

optimate said:

does anyone seriously think there wont be carnage if all cops were issued handguns every day
the above is just the ones they owned up to then add the knee knocking itchi trigger finger and its a recipe for a disaster

The PSNI are all routinely armed, face similar issue with drunken public order (and way beyond anything in E&W), yet there isn't carnage nor is it a disaster.

E&W is one of the few countries in the world than doesn't have routinely armed officers. Every comparable country is armed.

We don't need it, but the idea it couldn't be done without 'carnage or disaster' is false.

[optimate]

here we go spray and pray stratagey
they have fessed up to shooting 1 person already London terror attack: Police accidentally shot member of the public during response

50 rounds sprayed

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lo...

[Greendubber]

optimate said:

here we go spray and pray stratagey
they have fessed up to shooting 1 person already London terror attack: Police accidentally shot member of the public during response

50 rounds sprayed

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lo...

Spray and pray?

50 rounds fired by 8 officers, still think its spray and pray?

[TheRainMaker]

50 shots fired by 8 officers, is hardly spray and pray, would be interesting to find out how many hit the target.

Personally, I think they did an amazing job last night, as far as they could tell, the guys in front of them were about to explode.