HADECS Cameras for Red X Enforcement?

[mybrainhurts]

Earlier I said:

Swole said:

HADECS3 has the ability to do much more than Red X. Bottom line is, don't speed through HADECS3 sites and don't drive down Red X lanes if you want a clean license. Those who do will soon learn.

You could ask me how I know, but I can't say.

Without telling us how you know, will you tell us what else HADECS3 can do?

Bump...

[oyster]

Manners2001 said:

I think, from what I have experienced, the problem with 'smart' motorways is that they aren't very smart. Speed restrictions in place despite traffic flow being (relatively) light, free moving and without incidents for many miles or red Xs in place 2-3 miles ahead of any actual incident.

Human nature (and plenty of research conducted) dictates that a warning is only useful if a visible threat/valid purpose for it is observed to accompany the warning.

Not saying I agree with people who continue to steam on down red X marked lanes - but I'm pretty sue we've all experienced the frustration of incorrectly labelled lanes/roadworks.

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

[cmaguire]

oyster said:

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

The lack of a red X doesn't make your scenario probable. Strange how we managed without all this 'manipulation' for so long previously. And how many other places still appear to be doing so. Without an apocalypse.

[Manners2001]

oyster said:

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

I would imagine that there is more risk in merging 3 lanes to 2 or 4 to 3 - more tightly packed traffic, poor roadcraft and inevitable frustrations leading to prangs and shunts. Whilst the consequence may be less serious than your example (and therefore, in balance, a preferential outcome?) I would say the probability is far higher.

You pays your money you takes your choice. Or in the case of Smart motorways the taxpayer pays massively through the nose for construction, for the delays they cause and then we pay again when we get caught by the cameras! (N.b. I haven't been caught by one - touch wood!)

[Pica-Pica]

Manners2001 said:

oyster said:

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

I would imagine that there is more risk in merging 3 lanes to 2 or 4 to 3 - more tightly packed traffic, poor roadcraft and inevitable frustrations leading to prangs and shunts. Whilst the consequence may be less serious than your example (and therefore, in balance, a preferential outcome?) I would say the probability is far higher.

You pays your money you takes your choice. Or in the case of Smart motorways the taxpayer pays massively through the nose for construction, for the delays they cause and then we pay again when we get caught by the cameras! (N.b. I haven't been caught by one - touch wood!)

I drive along Smart motorways with variable limits, very, very rarely do you see people exceeding the limits. It may be en vogue to decry them, but the M6 non-toll is much better than before for traffic flow.

[wack]

oyster said:

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

The technology is supposed to identify a broken down vehicle and close the lane, I assume the technology is a bloke watching a TV screen where nothing happens for 99% of his day.

A saw a car broken down in lane 1 of a smart motorway , he'd been there long enough to have 1/2 the contents of the boot out to get at the spare wheel but cars and trucks were still bearing down on him as the lane was still live

[cmaguire]

wack said:

oyster said:

If a member of the public phones in their broken down vehicle is between junction x and junction y, then until further details are known, I'd expect the Red X to be displayed across the whole length of that.

Is the frustration of a false Red X lane for 2 miles really worse than ploughing into the back of a broken down car at 70mph?

The technology is supposed to identify a broken down vehicle and close the lane, I assume the technology is a bloke watching a TV screen where nothing happens for 99% of his day.

A saw a car broken down in lane 1 of a smart motorway , he'd been there long enough to have 1/2 the contents of the boot out to get at the spare wheel but cars and trucks were still bearing down on him as the lane was still live

Your situation is as daft as Oyster's in reality. In either case if drivers weren't so ste and actually looked beyond the end of their bonnet then all this would be accomodated without any problem whatsoever.
I'm being worn down by my freedoms being curtailed as a result of the stupidity of others and the State's desperation to be seen to be doing something about it.

[55palfers]

Wasn't aware the well known fuel additive had become compulsory.

[ashleyman]

I was on the M25 last night at about 11PM. Everything was normal with no signs lit, then at J11 the signs went like this: (my actions are in brackets)

60 60 60 60 (Reduce speed from 70 to 60)
↘ 60 60 60 (L1 closing, move to L2, stay at 60)
↘ ↘ 50 50 (L2 closing, move to L3, reduce speed at 50) - Woman behind me moves from L2 to L3 and sits in my blind spot so I have to brake and cut behind her
↘ ↘ ↘ 40 (L3 closing, move to L4, reduce speed at 40) - I'm now being undertaken by PHV's now
X X X 40 - (Stay in L4 at 40) - Mini behind me flashing at me to speed up, still being undertaken by PHV's
X X X 40 - Mini attempts to undertake, then moves back to L4

> ROADWORKS ARE NOW VISIBLE IN L1, MINI BACKS OFF

BLANK SIGNS - (Stay in L4 at 40) - Mini undertakes in L3 giving coffee beans out the window
BLANK SIGNS - (Assume road is clear so attempt to get from L4 to L1 without smashing into undertakers, speed is now at 40) - Still being undertaken by everything and anything
BLANK SIGNS - (Still trying to get to L1, speed is now at 70)
NSL NSL NSL NSL

I was all very impressed at how systematic the lane closures were, the warning and distances. Disappointed people were undertaking which made me feel like a knob for being in L4 at such a low speed. But then after the visible roadworks it turned bad with people changing lanes all over the place, huge speed differentials between traffic, more undertaking than ever and people agitated tailgating and flashing people in L4 still doing 40.

I'm half expecting some speeding tickets for going under those inactive junctions between the 40 and the NSL at 50/60mph.

[rs990]

tylerama said:

Ditto - I've seen them on several sections around the M25 flashing away regularly.

I think some of them are just broken. I remember seeing the Camera just before Cobham Services clockwise flashing every 15 seconds when the traffic below was crawling at 10mph.

[BristolRich]

ashleyman said:

I was on the M25 last night at about 11PM. Everything was normal with no signs lit, then at J11 the signs went like this: (my actions are in brackets)

60 60 60 60 (Reduce speed from 70 to 60)
? 60 60 60 (L1 closing, move to L2, stay at 60)
? ? 50 50 (L2 closing, move to L3, reduce speed at 50) - Woman behind me moves from L2 to L3 and sits in my blind spot so I have to brake and cut behind her
? ? ? 40 (L3 closing, move to L4, reduce speed at 40) - I'm now being undertaken by PHV's now
X X X 40 - (Stay in L4 at 40) - Mini behind me flashing at me to speed up, still being undertaken by PHV's
X X X 40 - Mini attempts to undertake, then moves back to L4

> ROADWORKS ARE NOW VISIBLE IN L1, MINI BACKS OFF

BLANK SIGNS - (Stay in L4 at 40) - Mini undertakes in L3 giving coffee beans out the window
BLANK SIGNS - (Assume road is clear so attempt to get from L4 to L1 without smashing into undertakers, speed is now at 40) - Still being undertaken by everything and anything
BLANK SIGNS - (Still trying to get to L1, speed is now at 70)
NSL NSL NSL NSL

I was all very impressed at how systematic the lane closures were, the warning and distances. Disappointed people were undertaking which made me feel like a knob for being in L4 at such a low speed. But then after the visible roadworks it turned bad with people changing lanes all over the place, huge speed differentials between traffic, more undertaking than ever and people agitated tailgating and flashing people in L4 still doing 40.

I'm half expecting some speeding tickets for going under those inactive junctions between the 40 and the NSL at 50/60mph.

Similar experience of the HADECS3 on new stretch of "Smart Motorway" M5 Worcester to M42...

50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 and HADECS at regular intervals.

An articulated lorry, myself and one other sat in lane one within the limit, everybody else streaming past way over 50, totally ignoring the limit.

It did make me wonder who was the mug...

[Manners2001]

Pica-Pica said:

I drive along Smart motorways with variable limits, very, very rarely do you see people exceeding the limits. It may be en vogue to decry them, but the M6 non-toll is much better than before for traffic flow.

Funny that, because I did the M25 from M40 to A12 (return) over the weekend and the only time the vast majority complied with the limit were when they hit the Hadecs. I also had a great example highlighting my comments of last week. I was pootling along at 70 ish and noticed the a change in speed had come up on the overheads. I also noticed the Hadec at the side. As the sun was shining directly behind the gantry it was impossible to make out the speed until just before the initial sensor cameras, at which point what I had thought was 60 was actually 50. I was able to slow without much fuss. Not so a number of other vehicles, who all had to slam on anchors as they approached. Then a notice on the next gantry saying 'animals in road, slow'. Great I thought, on the look out for a cow or a giraffe, or a least something that may indicate the requirement to slow down the traffic. Sure enough, after 2miles of speed restrictions the NSL was re-introduced, with not even a squashed rabbit to show for it. Absolute joke.

So yes, you may say it was poor planning on the part of drivers having to slow drastically, but why display the first change of speed notice on a Hadec? Why have the limit imposed for 2 miles? Why have a limit in place when there was no evidence of the animal(s)? En vogue to decry them? No, I just resent spending fortunes on a system which, from my experience throughout the country and on numerous occassions, only causes hassle and is completely unneccesary.

[OverSteery]

speedking31 said:

wack said:

I can't find it now but I did read the law regarding how ANPR can be used was changed recently to allow identification for prosecution when ignoring a red X on smart motorways so hopefully they're in the process of adding or modifying the cameras to allow this.

No modifications required. Surely you just set the speed limit for the red X lane to 0 mph and prosecute above that. Exactly te same process as enforcing any other variable limit.

Unless you have been involved in IT systems delivering into heavily regulated areas, you can't imagine the time it takes to make changes. To start fining people and endorsing their licence based on IT alone requires considerable governance, assurance and testing. I certainly don't want to be getting points on my licence because somebody hacked a bit of clever code together as a quick fix.

[speedking31]

Not that clever:

If SignDisplay = 60 and CarSpeed > 67 GoTo SendNIP
If SignDisplay = 50 and CarSpeed > 56 GoTo SendNIP

add

If SignDisplay = RedX and CarSpeed > 0 GoTo SendNIP

how hard can it be?

[mybrainhurts]

Earlier I said:

Earlier I said:

Swole said:

HADECS3 has the ability to do much more than Red X. Bottom line is, don't speed through HADECS3 sites and don't drive down Red X lanes if you want a clean license. Those who do will soon learn.

You could ask me how I know, but I can't say.

Without telling us how you know, will you tell us what else HADECS3 can do?

Bump...

Bump Bump....

[98elise]

Enforcement can't come fast enough IMO.

Good example tonight on the M25, junction 25 about 5:30. There was an accident ahead and L3 was shut for emergency vehicle access....except self important morons are still streaming down it.

Traffic then comes to a complete standstill including L3. After about 5 minutes I notice a few cars back doing odd manovers in the tightly packed traffic. Turns out there is an ambulance on blues and twos trying to get through. Everybody in L2 now has to shuffle over half into L1 so that L3 morons could get out of the way.

5 minutes later I can still see the ambulance as it's only got about 10-20 cars further on.

[Manners2001]

98elise said:

Enforcement can't come fast enough IMO.

Good example tonight on the M25, junction 25 about 5:30. There was an accident ahead and L3 was shut for emergency vehicle access....except self important morons are still streaming down it.

Traffic then comes to a complete standstill including L3. After about 5 minutes I notice a few cars back doing odd manovers in the tightly packed traffic. Turns out there is an ambulance on blues and twos trying to get through. Everybody in L2 now has to shuffle over half into L1 so that L3 morons could get out of the way.

5 minutes later I can still see the ambulance as it's only got about 10-20 cars further on.

That's what the hard shoulder used to be for!

[speedking31]

People need to make that mental switch to treating Red X lanes as if they were the hard shoulder. Very few used to transgress onto the hard shoulder, and it should be the same with the Red X. After all, an extra lane has been provided most of the time, so it isn't too difficult to vacate it when its use is required by others.