Traffic light Camera advice.
Discussion
Does anybody know anything about these traffic light cameras ?
I've had a letter saying I shot a red light when I have'nt.
Do these cameras go off on the red light or the orange?
What happens if you are caught in a junction when the car in front is stationary?
What is the law regarding jow often these thing need to be calibrated etc.
The photo only shows the rear of my car, it doesn't show who is driving or that a red light was shot.
What are the loopholes with these thing?
Any advice would be very welcome,
many thanks in advance.
I've had a letter saying I shot a red light when I have'nt.
Do these cameras go off on the red light or the orange?
What happens if you are caught in a junction when the car in front is stationary?
What is the law regarding jow often these thing need to be calibrated etc.
The photo only shows the rear of my car, it doesn't show who is driving or that a red light was shot.
What are the loopholes with these thing?
Any advice would be very welcome,
many thanks in advance.
Generally speaking you won't get much sympathy on here for running a red light - just warning you early!
Assuming you didn't run a light, then the most likely scenario is that you were over the line at some point when the lights were red. If you were crossing the junction, and then were prevented from traversing by stationery traffic, but moved while the lights were red, you'll still get done.
If you moved off too quickly - you'll get done.
Frequently red light NIPs will include a speed - this may help indicate if the scenario above is realistic.
Try www.pepipoo.com for more info on fighting this - look for threads about PACE.
Assuming you didn't run a light, then the most likely scenario is that you were over the line at some point when the lights were red. If you were crossing the junction, and then were prevented from traversing by stationery traffic, but moved while the lights were red, you'll still get done.
If you moved off too quickly - you'll get done.
Frequently red light NIPs will include a speed - this may help indicate if the scenario above is realistic.
Try www.pepipoo.com for more info on fighting this - look for threads about PACE.
puggit said:
Generally speaking you won't get much sympathy on here for running a red light - just warning you early!
Fair comment, though without knowing any of the circumstances would suggest a visit to the location armed with a stopwatch and time the amber duration. It might help to see it flashing other vehicles so you get an idea of the trigger point.
I have experience of RLC where the amber duration and the posted limit were completely incompatible.
forrest said:Does the photo show the whole of the junction? (I would have thought so). If not (judging by the description from your post): what if you were giving way to an emergency service vehicle just as the lights turned?
Does anybody know anything about these traffic light cameras ?
I've had a letter saying I shot a red light when I have'nt.
Do these cameras go off on the red light or the orange?
What happens if you are caught in a junction when the car in front is stationary?
What is the law regarding jow often these thing need to be calibrated etc.
The photo only shows the rear of my car, it doesn't show who is driving or that a red light was shot.
What are the loopholes with these thing?
Any advice would be very welcome,
many thanks in advance.
Flat in Fifth said:
Fair comment, though without knowing any of the circumstances would suggest a visit to the location armed with a stopwatch and time the amber duration. It might help to see it flashing other vehicles so you get an idea of the trigger point.
I have experience of RLC where the amber duration and the posted limit were completely incompatible.
Amber durations are fixed at 3 seconds, regardless of speed etc, as far as I am aware. It is the all red period following the amber (before the red/amber on the next stage) that can vary from zero to whatever you like.
If the approach speed is more than 35-40 mph (and certainly if the speed limit is higher than 30) then the signals should include either speed discrimination or speed assessment, to allow either the green to be extended, or, if the signals are already changing, the red to be extended. You do NOT extend the "leaving amber". This allows time for a faster car to either stop, or clear the junction, before the other road changes to green - ie a real safety measure.
I know about signals but less about RLCs, so I am not sure exactly how they recommend that they set them up in these circumstances.
It would be very naughty if the red light camera was prosecuting the motorist for going through a red light, if the signals were set up, on a high speed road (ie over 40) to allow them to do just that for real safety reasons.
The most appaling phasing for sets of lights with a camera on it is on the A12 in Romford. So apologies anyone thats stuck behind me as I approach them at generally below 30 odd mph (50 limit). Havnt had chance to time the amber to red sequence, but blink and you would miss it.
>> Edited by princeperch on Monday 4th April 13:41
>> Edited by princeperch on Monday 4th April 13:41
Often wondered about this.
Given the poor standard of driving on our roads, I often see numptys unpredictibly stop in the middle of junctions, having sort of decided to turn right at the last minute, and then changed their minds, thus stranding people behind them in the middle of the juction.
How would you dispute such a ticket ? Would the presence of a car in front and the speed at 1-2 miles an hour get you off ?
Would the camera even be sensitive/angled enough to cath the car in front, given it is probably outside its enforcement zone....
There is an unfair ticket just waiting to given to me at these junctions.
Given the poor standard of driving on our roads, I often see numptys unpredictibly stop in the middle of junctions, having sort of decided to turn right at the last minute, and then changed their minds, thus stranding people behind them in the middle of the juction.
How would you dispute such a ticket ? Would the presence of a car in front and the speed at 1-2 miles an hour get you off ?
Would the camera even be sensitive/angled enough to cath the car in front, given it is probably outside its enforcement zone....
There is an unfair ticket just waiting to given to me at these junctions.
tvrgit said:A TRAFFIC ADVISORY LEAFLET 2/03 from the DfT contains the following advice:
Fair comment, though without knowing any of the circumstances would suggest a visit to the location armed with a stopwatch and time the amber duration. It might help to see it flashing other vehicles so you get an idea of the trigger point.
I have experience of RLC where the amber duration and the posted limit were completely incompatible.
Amber durations are fixed at 3 seconds, regardless of speed etc, as far as I am aware. It is the all red period following the amber (before the red/amber on the next stage) that can vary from zero to whatever you like.
If the approach speed is more than 35-40 mph (and certainly if the speed limit is higher than 30) then the signals should include either speed discrimination or speed assessment, to allow either the green to be extended, or, if the signals are already changing, the red to be extended. You do NOT extend the "leaving amber". This allows time for a faster car to either stop, or clear the junction, before the other road changes to green - ie a real safety measure.
I know about signals but less about RLCs, so I am not sure exactly how they recommend that they set them up in these circumstances.
It would be very naughty if the red light camera was prosecuting the motorist for going through a red light, if the signals were set up, on a high speed road (ie over 40) to allow them to do just that for real safety reasons.
When traffic signals change away from green, drivers have to decide whether they can safely stop, at an acceptable deceleration rate, or continue and clear the stop line before the start of red.
On high-speed roads the decision becomes more difficult with increasing vehicle speeds. “High speed” for signal controlled installations is taken to mean a road where the 85th percentile approach speeds at a junction are 35 mph (56 km/h) or above.
Close to, and far from, the junction, the decision is relatively easy. The probability of an accident happening is highest for drivers making a decision between these points. The length over which decisions are deemed to be difficult is termed the “dilemma zone” and has been defined by the boundaries:
– The distance at which 10% of drivers stop when the signals change to amber
– The distance at which 90% of drivers stop when the signals change to amber.
Signal-controlled junctions are not recommended where the 85th percentile approach speed exceeds 65 mph (104 km/h).
It also advises:
RED RUNNING CAMERAS
At high speed sites there should be a delay before the camera is activated of at least 1 second of red, being increased to at least 1.5 seconds as the 85th percentile speeds increase.
You could ask for the timing of the lights to be checked - it is not unheard of for replacement PCBs to be programmed differently to the replaced board.
No-one who runs a red light gets much sympathy from me, but having worked in an office (in Den Haag) that overlooked a junction with a RLC, I have seen a goodly number of 'anomalous' situations where apparently innocent drivers were flashed.
Streaky
Also, I just read TA 12/81 - Traffic Signals on High Speed Roads published by the Highways Agency.
This states:
7. MAINTENANCE ... 7.2 Regular inspection is essential and inspections need to be carried out at approximately monthly intervals.
To confirm what tvrgit said, quoting from TA 16/81 - General Principles of Control by Traffic Signals: 5. SIGNAL SEQUENCES ... 5.1 The signal sequence at junction traffic signals in Great Britain is red, red + amber, green, amber and red. The standard period during which an amber signal is displayed is fixed at three seconds and the red + amber signal at two seconds. The green signal and the red signal are shown for periods which are usually variable between a minimum and a preset maximum, but they can remain in one state during low traffic periods.
Whilst these were published in 1981, I doubt they have been superseeded.
Streaky
This states:
7. MAINTENANCE ... 7.2 Regular inspection is essential and inspections need to be carried out at approximately monthly intervals.
To confirm what tvrgit said, quoting from TA 16/81 - General Principles of Control by Traffic Signals: 5. SIGNAL SEQUENCES ... 5.1 The signal sequence at junction traffic signals in Great Britain is red, red + amber, green, amber and red. The standard period during which an amber signal is displayed is fixed at three seconds and the red + amber signal at two seconds. The green signal and the red signal are shown for periods which are usually variable between a minimum and a preset maximum, but they can remain in one state during low traffic periods.
Whilst these were published in 1981, I doubt they have been superseeded.
Streaky
Thanks Streaky for finding the reference - I knew exactly what it said but don't have time to dig out the DMRB!
I think you'll also find (in Chapter 5 of that same document IIRC) the reference to speed assessment and speed discrimination, and extension to green times / red times I mentioned before.
As I say I know more about signals (have specced and installed quite a few now) but not a lot about RLC (have installed none!). Interested in your wee point at the end from the Advisory Leaflet on red light cameras - confirms what I kind of thought, but didn't know from where!
(edited to add) And no, you're right, they haven't been superseded.
>> Edited by tvrgit on Monday 4th April 16:32
I think you'll also find (in Chapter 5 of that same document IIRC) the reference to speed assessment and speed discrimination, and extension to green times / red times I mentioned before.
As I say I know more about signals (have specced and installed quite a few now) but not a lot about RLC (have installed none!). Interested in your wee point at the end from the Advisory Leaflet on red light cameras - confirms what I kind of thought, but didn't know from where!
(edited to add) And no, you're right, they haven't been superseded.
>> Edited by tvrgit on Monday 4th April 16:32
Thanks to Streaky for the links.
The RCL site I referred to was on a NSL dual, hence technically 70 though to be fair it only has been dual for a few hundred yards. The 85th percentile is definitely not over 65mph.
The amber light duration 2.3 seconds.
The delay from red to trigger was less than a second, difficult to measure accurately and consistently but definitely observed when cars less than a vehicle length over the stop line.
I put it to the PH masses that, despite all the rules of what should and should not be, and advisory leaflets saying this and that, this particular RLC was not only outside guidelines but also outwith any sensible operating parameters.
The eagle eyed will have spotted the past tense in the above, as the RLC is no more following some :cough: loud discussions.
The RCL site I referred to was on a NSL dual, hence technically 70 though to be fair it only has been dual for a few hundred yards. The 85th percentile is definitely not over 65mph.
The amber light duration 2.3 seconds.
The delay from red to trigger was less than a second, difficult to measure accurately and consistently but definitely observed when cars less than a vehicle length over the stop line.
I put it to the PH masses that, despite all the rules of what should and should not be, and advisory leaflets saying this and that, this particular RLC was not only outside guidelines but also outwith any sensible operating parameters.
The eagle eyed will have spotted the past tense in the above, as the RLC is no more following some :cough: loud discussions.
If the amber light duration was truly 2.3 seconds then those signals are faulty, they do not comply with the MCE spec, and should be reported to the roads authority.
It would be very unusual if that was the case though - the leaving amber must be 3 seconds and is not normally reprogrammable on-site.
It would be very unusual if that was the case though - the leaving amber must be 3 seconds and is not normally reprogrammable on-site.
tvrgit said:
If the amber light duration was truly 2.3 seconds then those signals are faulty, they do not comply with the MCE spec, and should be reported to the roads authority.
It would be very unusual if that was the case though - the leaving amber must be 3 seconds and is not normally reprogrammable on-site.
After I complained even though I hadn't actually been pinged personally, and after a fairly "loud discussion" the lights were initially reprogrammed to increase the amber to >3 secs.
Then more loops were installed to give some sort of speed/vehicle detection system which to be honest appeared to work.
Anyway after a while the RLC was removed, yet the speed detection/discrimination system remains, so now the lights work quite well. Pity it took ranting to get things done correctly.
Just to add another comment which will probably close off the discussion about "my" RLC site.
Having read the advisory leaflet identified by Streaky and also read a reasonable number of the documents and research papers referenced on page 8 of the leaflet the penny has finally dropped.
"My" RLC junction appears to have been a test site where the rules were being developed. Why didn't they say that when confronted as it could have saved a lot of grief.
Equally it could have saved the grief of the several rear end and side impacts when the timimg was all cock-a-mamy.
FiF
Having read the advisory leaflet identified by Streaky and also read a reasonable number of the documents and research papers referenced on page 8 of the leaflet the penny has finally dropped.
"My" RLC junction appears to have been a test site where the rules were being developed. Why didn't they say that when confronted as it could have saved a lot of grief.
Equally it could have saved the grief of the several rear end and side impacts when the timimg was all cock-a-mamy.
FiF
tvrgit said:No they aren't, I've seen one light change to amber, then red as the other was turning green.
Amber durations are fixed at 3 seconds, regardless of speed etc, as far as I am aware. It is the all red period following the amber (before the red/amber on the next stage) that can vary from zero to whatever you like.
I was talking in the sense of speed discrimination etc - they don't overlap then! sorry, I didn't type that very well. It went green, amber, red on one set (with no disernable pause), and as the amber light showed on one set, another was turning amber.
So you had:
green red
amber amber
red green
with no gaps. My understanding is the squence should start one after the other.
So you had:
green red
amber amber
red green
with no gaps. My understanding is the squence should start one after the other.
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