Assets still in deceased mums name and dad has died
Discussion
Just wonder what I need to do to sort this out.
My mum died in 2012, no will and my dad just assumed ownership of all assets including shares in her name.
The house was also in joint names.
She had a bank account in her name which my dad had access to and never changed the name or withdrew the funds.
My dad has now died, no will again. I'm the sole relative.
Do I just do a single probate application for my dad or do I need to do one for my mum too to take control of these assets?
My mum died in 2012, no will and my dad just assumed ownership of all assets including shares in her name.
The house was also in joint names.
She had a bank account in her name which my dad had access to and never changed the name or withdrew the funds.
My dad has now died, no will again. I'm the sole relative.
Do I just do a single probate application for my dad or do I need to do one for my mum too to take control of these assets?
You can't apply for probate where there is no will - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and... - you need Letters of Administration.
As your mother also died intestate I hope your father did everything he was supposed to do at the time.
A possible concern from your post is that it sounds like he may not have done (e.g. failing to communicate with the bank).
Which then begs the question, what else may he have omitted to do?
How large was her estate? You need to have a look at the intestacy rules which applied at the time - http://www.colinsnaith.co.uk/wills/intestacy-flowc...
For your own situation you'll need to look at the post 2014 rules - http://www.colinsnaith.co.uk/wills/intestacy-flowc...
As your mother also died intestate I hope your father did everything he was supposed to do at the time.
A possible concern from your post is that it sounds like he may not have done (e.g. failing to communicate with the bank).
Pistom said:
She had a bank account in her name which my dad had access to and never changed the name or withdrew the funds.
If the account was only in her name how did he have access to it?Which then begs the question, what else may he have omitted to do?
How large was her estate? You need to have a look at the intestacy rules which applied at the time - http://www.colinsnaith.co.uk/wills/intestacy-flowc...
For your own situation you'll need to look at the post 2014 rules - http://www.colinsnaith.co.uk/wills/intestacy-flowc...
I would start by doing a search to see whether your father obtained administration for your mother. Note that the search will return either probate or administration, even though it implies it's only about probate. When my father died in January, I couldn't find any record of him obtaining probate for my mother who died in 2011, and I suspected Dad couldn't find her will and had treated her as intestate - but the probate office told me that an application for administration would also have shown up in the search.
If your father didn't obtain administration for your mother, you can do it yourself now. This is what I had to do, because it turned out that my Dad had started an application for probate for Mum, but it stalled because he'd made a number of significant errors. So I withdrew his application and applied for probate myself, even though it's 6 years after her death.
If your father didn't obtain administration for your mother, you can do it yourself now. This is what I had to do, because it turned out that my Dad had started an application for probate for Mum, but it stalled because he'd made a number of significant errors. So I withdrew his application and applied for probate myself, even though it's 6 years after her death.
You also need to find out how the house was owned. There's at least two ways that I know of that a property can be "in joint names". There is "joint tenants", which is the most common, where both partners share ownership of the whole property. In this case, full ownership would have automatically gone to your father when your mother died, without any action required on his part.
But there is also "tenants in common", where each partner owns a specified share of the property. In this case, ownership does not automatically transfer to your father; your mother's share is treated according to her will (or in this case, according to the intestacy rules). In the absence of a will that dictates some other treatment of her share, the intestacy rules probably do transfer it to your father - so the effect may be the same.
Having been through this process myself over the last six months, I would strongly recommend appointing a solicitor to help you - especially because there are loose ends that need tying up in this case. If there is inheritance tax to pay, a good solicitor might even pay for himself - mine used a tax relief that I would not have known about, and this saved many times more than his fee.
But there is also "tenants in common", where each partner owns a specified share of the property. In this case, ownership does not automatically transfer to your father; your mother's share is treated according to her will (or in this case, according to the intestacy rules). In the absence of a will that dictates some other treatment of her share, the intestacy rules probably do transfer it to your father - so the effect may be the same.
Having been through this process myself over the last six months, I would strongly recommend appointing a solicitor to help you - especially because there are loose ends that need tying up in this case. If there is inheritance tax to pay, a good solicitor might even pay for himself - mine used a tax relief that I would not have known about, and this saved many times more than his fee.
littleredrooster said:
Welshbeef said:
Out of interest what would happen if a surviving partner didn't follow he rules (be it deliberately or aimply didn't really have any idea what to do and in a grieving state) then dies themselves ?
Surely this is the exact question the OP is asking?? Did you read it?Welshbeef said:
littleredrooster said:
Welshbeef said:
Out of interest what would happen if a surviving partner didn't follow he rules (be it deliberately or aimply didn't really have any idea what to do and in a grieving state) then dies themselves ?
Surely this is the exact question the OP is asking?? Did you read it?Pistom said:
Many thanks, that's made matters clearer.
Re access to mums bank account, I don't know what the term is but mum had given the bank written authorisation for dad to access it years ago.
Ah. That will be a Third Party Mandate. Re access to mums bank account, I don't know what the term is but mum had given the bank written authorisation for dad to access it years ago.
That is not the same thing as a joint account. The authority is immediately revoked when the account holder dies.
See page 4 here - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_esf-ca-app-content/con... -
The account will be frozen until the estate is settled.
He he might well have ended up with the money after the formailities were concluded.
However failing to tell the bank about the death of the account holder would definitely have earned him a place on the naughty step.
Pistom said:
He was certainly using her account a few weeks before he died.
What do you mean by using? I thought you said he never withdrew the funds. Or do you mean he deposited further monies into it?Take Dr Mike Oxgreen's advice. Especially as there are now two intestate estates involved.
As said, there is no IHT on the first estate if the house was held as joint tenants. That all changes on the death of the surviving spouse.
It always amazes me how many people still don't bother making a will.
OK, when you're dead it really doesn't matter much to you any more, but why make life more complicated at a difficult time for those you leave behind?
Pistom said:
Thanks for the advice and sorry if my ambiguity has caused spats.
Just clarifying the point over not withdrawing funds, I mean withdrawing all the funds. He was dipping into the account for £50 here and there but the account has about £20K in.
First off OP, sorry to hear of your loss. Just clarifying the point over not withdrawing funds, I mean withdrawing all the funds. He was dipping into the account for £50 here and there but the account has about £20K in.
But if the bank account was in just your mother's name your father should have stopped using it when she died and got her estate settled appropriately then.
Which may well complicate things for you now - in your situation I'd be straight off to see a good probate solicitor.
Hope it all works out.
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