Do Animals have a "market value"?
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Looking for a legal answer, not an emotional one.
If I hit someone's car, we all know repairs are limited to market value. The person I hit can't spend £5K fixing a £2K car.
What if I hit a dog? It needs £5K of operations to fix its leg. Can the dog owner claim that, if it was a mongrel worth £30. If it was a supreme champion worth £20K, then I guess he could. Do dogs have a market value, like other property.
By the way, I haven't hit either. Just an idle discussion at work.
Interesting question.If I hit someone's car, we all know repairs are limited to market value. The person I hit can't spend £5K fixing a £2K car.
What if I hit a dog? It needs £5K of operations to fix its leg. Can the dog owner claim that, if it was a mongrel worth £30. If it was a supreme champion worth £20K, then I guess he could. Do dogs have a market value, like other property.
By the way, I haven't hit either. Just an idle discussion at work.
What if it's ghost/supernatural dog?
ging84 said:
I believe repairs being limited to the value of the car is convention based on the principle of mitigating losses.
It would generally be unreasonable to claim £5k to repair a car you could easily replace for £2k.
It might be reasonable to spend £5k to treat a beloved pet, even if you could get a younger replacement for free from a rescue centre.
If you do, you can't claim it back from the responsible third party. In law, a pet is no different to a car or any other item on property. You can't claim more than it's market value to repair it. The law says spending £5K to fix a mongrel that could be replaced for £20 is not reasonable.It would generally be unreasonable to claim £5k to repair a car you could easily replace for £2k.
It might be reasonable to spend £5k to treat a beloved pet, even if you could get a younger replacement for free from a rescue centre.
Of course, if you buy your own pet policy, then that doesn't apply. You have fixed amounts of cover for vet fees, regardless of the value of Fido. Talking purely about tp liability.
Willy Nilly said:
Years ago we had a border collie called Ben, he was a semi train sheep dog, that was good enough for moving the sheep dad had on tack from field to field.
One day Ben was on his "rounds", (sniffing around the neighbourhood) when his green cross code failed him and he was fatally hit by a Porsche 968. The owner was a bit of a chancer and said Ben had done hundreds of quids worth of damage to the car which was remarkable fixed the same day and he wanted paying for the damage. Dad smelt a rat and wanted to know how much he was going to pay for killing his sheep dog.
Blokey didn't think the dog was worth anything as it was just a dog. Dad proceeded to ask if he had ever seen sheep in a field, he had. The asked how he thought the sheep were rounded up, it was with a dog. He then asked if he had ever seen sheep on he mountains in Wales, which he had, and how did he think the sheep were rounded up. He then asked how much he thought our dead dog was worth.
Our dog shouldn't have been on the road, but it turned out the guy was attempting to make a false insurance claim and when presented with the farm insurance company went remarkable quiet.
So, of course animals have a market value, it just depends what the animal is.
My grandad used to breed springer spaniels and labs as gun dogs, his customers were happy to shell out large sums, often much higher than the cost of a Kennel Club champion, his dogs had their own pedigree of proven working lines.One day Ben was on his "rounds", (sniffing around the neighbourhood) when his green cross code failed him and he was fatally hit by a Porsche 968. The owner was a bit of a chancer and said Ben had done hundreds of quids worth of damage to the car which was remarkable fixed the same day and he wanted paying for the damage. Dad smelt a rat and wanted to know how much he was going to pay for killing his sheep dog.
Blokey didn't think the dog was worth anything as it was just a dog. Dad proceeded to ask if he had ever seen sheep in a field, he had. The asked how he thought the sheep were rounded up, it was with a dog. He then asked if he had ever seen sheep on he mountains in Wales, which he had, and how did he think the sheep were rounded up. He then asked how much he thought our dead dog was worth.
Our dog shouldn't have been on the road, but it turned out the guy was attempting to make a false insurance claim and when presented with the farm insurance company went remarkable quiet.
So, of course animals have a market value, it just depends what the animal is.
KC registration meant sod all to him or his customers, as he said "thats for pets not working beasts".
I've always known that hitting a dog has to be reported, but this distinction of some animals being 'free spirits' intrigues me. Is there a list somewhere of what creatures do or do not count as free spirits?
My son's tortoise likes to roam. Would he be a free spirit if he got squashed? Or if a rare tiger escaped from the zoo, or a llama from a farm, what would they be? I presume cattle and sheep have to be reported, but they are livestock and belong to somebody who makes a living out of them. Would a llama from a zoo be treated differently from a llama from a farm, or a pet llama that got out of a garden?
My son's tortoise likes to roam. Would he be a free spirit if he got squashed? Or if a rare tiger escaped from the zoo, or a llama from a farm, what would they be? I presume cattle and sheep have to be reported, but they are livestock and belong to somebody who makes a living out of them. Would a llama from a zoo be treated differently from a llama from a farm, or a pet llama that got out of a garden?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
If you do, you can't claim it back from the responsible third party. In law, a pet is no different to a car or any other item on property. You can't claim more than it's market value to repair it. The law says spending £5K to fix a mongrel that could be replaced for £20 is not reasonable.
Of course, if you buy your own pet policy, then that doesn't apply. You have fixed amounts of cover for vet fees, regardless of the value of Fido. Talking purely about tp liability.
I disagree, the cost of treatment for a beloved pet can exceed it's market value but still pass the reasonableness test.Of course, if you buy your own pet policy, then that doesn't apply. You have fixed amounts of cover for vet fees, regardless of the value of Fido. Talking purely about tp liability.
Give someone with the means to pay a £5k vet bill the option of paying £5k to treat thier injured pet, or putting it down and getting a new one, they are going to pay the £5k.
ging84 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
If you do, you can't claim it back from the responsible third party. In law, a pet is no different to a car or any other item on property. You can't claim more than it's market value to repair it. The law says spending £5K to fix a mongrel that could be replaced for £20 is not reasonable.
Of course, if you buy your own pet policy, then that doesn't apply. You have fixed amounts of cover for vet fees, regardless of the value of Fido. Talking purely about tp liability.
I disagree, the cost of treatment for a beloved pet can exceed it's market value but still pass the reasonableness test.Of course, if you buy your own pet policy, then that doesn't apply. You have fixed amounts of cover for vet fees, regardless of the value of Fido. Talking purely about tp liability.
If you want more than that, buy your own pet insurance.
Watching the telly, I'm sure bailiffs can take pedigree dogs with papers to sell on to recoupe the debt, there must be a market value here.
When my 6yr old dog was put down because of terminal cancer, my dog insurance co as part of the policy paid you back for the initial amount paid for the dog.
I paid £1000 for the dog but could have also bought the same breed for £300 there was no market value in this instance just produce a receipt.
When my 6yr old dog was put down because of terminal cancer, my dog insurance co as part of the policy paid you back for the initial amount paid for the dog.
I paid £1000 for the dog but could have also bought the same breed for £300 there was no market value in this instance just produce a receipt.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
In your mind maybe. But that's not what the law says. Common law precedent applies. TP liability is restricted to the repair cost or replacement value of the animal, whichever is the lower.
I can't find anything definitive on the internet on how the law works in the UK so I don't know whether you're correct (do you know of an actual case?). However in the US (or much of it, at least) it seems that medical bills for a pet are recoverable, even if they exceed the pet's replacement cost.https://blog.mass.gov/masslawlib/legal-topics/mass...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-362769...
US common law is based on much the same principles as UK common law, though the interpretation of some of those principles has diverged over the years, so things may well be different on this side of the pond. If nothing else it would be an interesting example of that divergence.
PAULJ5555 said:
Watching the telly, I'm sure bailiffs can take pedigree dogs with papers to sell on to recoupe the debt, there must be a market value here.
When my 6yr old dog was put down because of terminal cancer, my dog insurance co as part of the policy paid you back for the initial amount paid for the dog.
I paid £1000 for the dog but could have also bought the same breed for £300 there was no market value in this instance just produce a receipt.
We're talking purely about third party liability. Your own policy may well agree to pay a fixed amount, regardless of market value. When my 6yr old dog was put down because of terminal cancer, my dog insurance co as part of the policy paid you back for the initial amount paid for the dog.
I paid £1000 for the dog but could have also bought the same breed for £300 there was no market value in this instance just produce a receipt.
Aretnap said:
I can't find anything definitive on the internet on how the law works in the UK so I don't know whether you're correct (do you know of an actual case?).
No, but I spoke to a good friend who is a senior claims bod at Allianz insurance. He says he's dealt with numerous cases over the years, negligence claims against vets, against dog groomers and walkers, pet food manufacturers, etc, where owners have claimed their dogs have been injured thru negligence. They've left their pet in someone's care, and it's ended up injured. Or the dog has got ill after eating superchunks or whatever. Tp liability in such cases is limited to putting right the injury, or replacement, whichever is the lowest.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
In your mind maybe. But that's not what the law says. Common law precedent applies. TP liability is restricted to the repair cost or replacement value of the animal, whichever is the lower.
If you want more than that, buy your own pet insurance.
I understand the Road Traffic act regarding animals is based on farm animals (dog, goat, horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep and pig). You have to report running over them.If you want more than that, buy your own pet insurance.
Other animals there is no requirement to report.
Assigning values to animals is a civil law matter.
I know that when I took out pet insurance on a standard poodle I had rescued, the insurance company asked what the value of the dog was and I couldn't get my head round the concept.
I told them I had rescued the dog, not paid for it, so surely that would put the 'value' at zero but any value was completely meaningless to me, he then explained that the policy paid out the value of the dog if it was killed.
Stupidly I just told him I wouldn't want a pay out in the event of my doggies death and I couldn't put a price on it. What a sucker I was
I was upset when the dog finally died and a bit of cash wouldn't have changed that, but it wouldn't have hurt..
I told them I had rescued the dog, not paid for it, so surely that would put the 'value' at zero but any value was completely meaningless to me, he then explained that the policy paid out the value of the dog if it was killed.
Stupidly I just told him I wouldn't want a pay out in the event of my doggies death and I couldn't put a price on it. What a sucker I was
I was upset when the dog finally died and a bit of cash wouldn't have changed that, but it wouldn't have hurt..Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff