Buying a car to re-sell...insurance issues?
Discussion
daemon said:
C70R said:
daemon said:
C70R said:
give the buyer a plausible reason for sale
Ah yes, the "my wife doesnt like it", "bought it but really need a manual", "selling it for my uncle whos a Vicar", then meet them at tescos car park so they dont know where you live. 
All those neat ways of avoiding your responsibilities to your
We're talking about very infrequent buying/sale of low value cars - not someone keeping a stock of questionable exotica on their driveway.
But thats ok if you just do it once in a while? You can stiff a buyer but its ok if you're only doing it now and again?
Brilliant. Wait til your sister or father or son or a friend gets stiffed by some low life doing that and see how great you think it is then.
If the OP is happy to sell the very occasional car that he deems safe/roadworthy, for a price that's representative of a private sale but making him some beer money, who exactly is losing out there? Who is getting "stiffed"?
C70R said:
Stop being such a hysterical blouse.
If the OP is happy to sell the very occasional car that he deems safe/roadworthy, for a price that's representative of a private sale but making him some beer money, who exactly is losing out there? Who is getting "stiffed"?
Everybody.If the OP is happy to sell the very occasional car that he deems safe/roadworthy, for a price that's representative of a private sale but making him some beer money, who exactly is losing out there? Who is getting "stiffed"?
The customer who buys it in good faith from a supposedly "private seller", then gets told to get lost if theres a significant problem with the car that was undisclosed / hidden or just manifests itself subsequently.
Regular traders trying to make an honest living and standing over their cars are getting stiffed because they are having to compete on price with these "driveway traders" who dont pay tax, VAT, insurance or stand over their cars.
We all get stiffed because these driveway traders - often with quite significant turnovers - dont pay any tax on their profit and it often is used by people to top up their income and thus allowing them to stay comfortable "on the dole" rather than get a job.
And its not just cheapie cars either - its happening right through the price ranges. So you could end up buying a £10K car from a "private seller" whos bought it cheap and has doctored it up and is "selling it for a friend".
People staying underneath the radar and looking for a quick buck are also more likely to hide or not disclose faults rather than fix them, use dodgy MOTs and give the car a quick haircut if the mileage is a bit too high. Or badly repair a damaged car, or hide an accident history.
And you're looking at it from the "wheres the harm of one individual maybe selling half a dozen cars a year?" perspective. The problem is its rampant behaviour out there. Gumtree is full of these "driveway traders" who'll "meet you at tescos" and tell you "just selling it because my wife doesnt like it, pal".
Even a cursory look at gumtree would show you how rampant it is.
daemon said:
C70R said:
Stop being such a hysterical blouse.
If the OP is happy to sell the very occasional car that he deems safe/roadworthy, for a price that's representative of a private sale but making him some beer money, who exactly is losing out there? Who is getting "stiffed"?
Everybody.If the OP is happy to sell the very occasional car that he deems safe/roadworthy, for a price that's representative of a private sale but making him some beer money, who exactly is losing out there? Who is getting "stiffed"?
The customer who buys it in good faith from a supposedly "private seller", then gets told to get lost if theres a significant problem with the car that was undisclosed / hidden or just manifests itself subsequently.
Regular traders trying to make an honest living and standing over their cars are getting stiffed because they are having to compete on price with these "driveway traders" who dont pay tax, VAT, insurance or stand over their cars.
We all get stiffed because these driveway traders - often with quite significant turnovers - dont pay any tax on their profit and it often is used by people to top up their income and thus allowing them to stay comfortable "on the dole" rather than get a job.
And its not just cheapie cars either - its happening right through the price ranges. So you could end up buying a £10K car from a "private seller" whos bought it cheap and has doctored it up and is "selling it for a friend".
People staying underneath the radar and looking for a quick buck are also more likely to hide or not disclose faults rather than fix them, use dodgy MOTs and give the car a quick haircut if the mileage is a bit too high. Or badly repair a damaged car, or hide an accident history.
And you're looking at it from the "wheres the harm of one individual maybe selling half a dozen cars a year?" perspective. The problem is its rampant behaviour out there. Gumtree is full of these "driveway traders" who'll "meet you at tescos" and tell you "just selling it because my wife doesnt like it, pal".
Even a cursory look at gumtree would show you how rampant it is.
I'm not talking about people shifting 50 high-end cars a year off their driveway, listed on Ebay as "Dazza's Luxury Motors". That's clearly misleading, and you won't get any argument from anyone.
Tell me this, what is the difference in the obligation of the purchaser when buying from an occasional (2-3 a year) driveway trader ('masquerading' as a private seller) and any other normal private seller?
The answer, unless you're looking for something to foam at the mouth about, is nothing. There's every chance that a private seller could knowingly/unknowingly sell you a dud, particularly at the lower end of the market (as in this example). It's the job of the buyer to approach every private sale with their eyes open, no matter who they are buying from.
Provided that the seller is not deliberately withholding/disguising major faults (as the OP was not), and the seller is not pretending to be a registered trader (as the OP was not), I can't see why it's worth getting so worked up about this.
daemon said:
Shuvi McTupya said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Chuck it back into the auctions and forget trying to be a driveway 
trader unless you are willing to pay for insurance, trade plates and fulfil the legal obligations of your customers.
Er, ok.. trader unless you are willing to pay for insurance, trade plates and fulfil the legal obligations of your customers. I have bought every car I have ever owned privately, it doesn't make any difference to me if they bought it from an auction to sell on.
Since when did it become a crime to buy and sell stuff for a profit??
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Friday 4th August 00:23
Probably bid up by the trader who dumped it through the auction too, and only there because of the known fault.
Whilst it may not be a "crime" per se, if you are selling a car for profit you have legal obligations with respect to
=> Road Traffic Act - the car needs to be TAXED, insured, roadworthy and registered to your name (either trader or otherwise)
=> The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (the car must be as described, and you are effectively warranting the car against faults. If a significant fault occurs within 28 days the buyer can legally demand a refund. If its after 28 days you would have to prove the fault wasnt there at the time of purchase.
And presumably if you've "no plans to rip anyone off" you've budgeted for standing over the car and taking irate calls from the buyer for say 6 months?
Once you've complied with all of the above, the little hope you have of a bit of profit remaining will be very quickly eaten up when the phone rings in a months time because some engine management light has popped on and the handbook says "return to dealer".....
Anyways, good luck, but please dont play the "Since when was it a crime to buy and sell stuff for profit?" card again. Far far too many low life driveway traders out there avoiding ALL their responsibilities then bleating on about being "private sellers"
Edited by daemon on Friday 4th August 08:11
Not so in my experience
I buy government surplus vehicles
C70R said:
Stop being such a hysterical blouse.
I'm not talking about people shifting 50 high-end cars a year off their driveway, listed on Ebay as "Dazza's Luxury Motors". That's clearly misleading, and you won't get any argument from anyone.
So why does a regular trader have to stand over his cars, but someone only doing a handful a year not? I'm not talking about people shifting 50 high-end cars a year off their driveway, listed on Ebay as "Dazza's Luxury Motors". That's clearly misleading, and you won't get any argument from anyone.
Can you show us the distinction in the CRA 2015?
C70R said:
Tell me this, what is the difference in the obligation of the purchaser when buying from an occasional (2-3 a year) driveway trader ('masquerading' as a private seller) and any other normal private seller?
The answer, unless you're looking for something to foam at the mouth about, is nothing. There's every chance that a private seller could knowingly/unknowingly sell you a dud, particularly at the lower end of the market (as in this example). It's the job of the buyer to approach every private sale with their eyes open, no matter who they are buying from.
Uh Huh - and if you buy from a trader you have rights. Pretending to be a private seller is seeking to take those rights away from the buyer.The answer, unless you're looking for something to foam at the mouth about, is nothing. There's every chance that a private seller could knowingly/unknowingly sell you a dud, particularly at the lower end of the market (as in this example). It's the job of the buyer to approach every private sale with their eyes open, no matter who they are buying from.
And are you now saying that its the buyers fault if they buy a dud from a trader masquerading as a private seller??
C70R said:
Provided that the seller is not deliberately withholding/disguising major faults (as the OP was not), and the seller is not pretending to be a registered trader (as the OP was not), I can't see why it's worth getting so worked up about this.
Because they're trading and not meeting the obligations every other legal trader is obliged to meet and moreoften they'll cut corners, botch fixes and not disclose faults to make a quick buck - all unbeknown to an innocent buyer.Out of curiosity, how would you feel if your son / dad / sister bought a car off some driveway trader who'd bought a car at an auction one night, ran a sponge over it the following morning, the car turned out to have an expensive fault and the seller said "sorry pal, i only do this part time so i dont have to stand over it"?
OR, how would you feel if in your line of work - whatever that may be - if there were rogue traders undercutting you by avoiding taxes and not standing over their work and not providing a quality product?
Are EITHER of those remotely fair? And as they're not, why should anyone tolerate it?
Should we tolerate rogue builders? Sure wheres the harm? Build one or two extensions a year, dont pay taxes, dont have proper insurance, maybe not a perfect job because they dont know what they're doing and there'll be the odd botch covered up and they'll not stand over the work, but wheres the harm?
Edited by daemon on Saturday 5th August 13:20
SantaBarbara said:
daemon said:
Shuvi McTupya said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Chuck it back into the auctions and forget trying to be a driveway trader unless you are willing to pay for insurance, trade plates and fulfil the legal obligations of your customers.
Er, ok.. trader unless you are willing to pay for insurance, trade plates and fulfil the legal obligations of your customers. I have bought every car I have ever owned privately, it doesn't make any difference to me if they bought it from an auction to sell on.
Since when did it become a crime to buy and sell stuff for a profit??
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Friday 4th August 00:23
Probably bid up by the trader who dumped it through the auction too, and only there because of the known fault.
Whilst it may not be a "crime" per se, if you are selling a car for profit you have legal obligations with respect to
=> Road Traffic Act - the car needs to be TAXED, insured, roadworthy and registered to your name (either trader or otherwise)
=> The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (the car must be as described, and you are effectively warranting the car against faults. If a significant fault occurs within 28 days the buyer can legally demand a refund. If its after 28 days you would have to prove the fault wasnt there at the time of purchase.
And presumably if you've "no plans to rip anyone off" you've budgeted for standing over the car and taking irate calls from the buyer for say 6 months?
Once you've complied with all of the above, the little hope you have of a bit of profit remaining will be very quickly eaten up when the phone rings in a months time because some engine management light has popped on and the handbook says "return to dealer".....
Anyways, good luck, but please dont play the "Since when was it a crime to buy and sell stuff for profit?" card again. Far far too many low life driveway traders out there avoiding ALL their responsibilities then bleating on about being "private sellers"
Edited by daemon on Friday 4th August 08:11
Not so in my experience
I buy government surplus vehicles
You cant just drive about in a car, have the car parked on a public road or give out test drives, etc, in an untaxed car because your "trade"
Edited by daemon on Saturday 5th August 13:24
Just for information on trade plates . They do not cover MOT they only cover tax and insurance.
They are to be only used for business purposes, not used for running to the shops or the kids to school , some traders have had problems using cars to run to and from work on trade plates .
Abusing the rules can lead to the plates being withdrawn .
Unless it's all changed somebody selling a couple of cars a year is not classed as a trader as most petrolheads would have done at times .
Is the guy that buys a car with known faults ,fixes them then flogs it a year later for loads of profit a trader ?
If you can't spot a dodgy driveway trader should you be out buying a car on your own ?
They are so easy to spot .
They are to be only used for business purposes, not used for running to the shops or the kids to school , some traders have had problems using cars to run to and from work on trade plates .
Abusing the rules can lead to the plates being withdrawn .
Unless it's all changed somebody selling a couple of cars a year is not classed as a trader as most petrolheads would have done at times .
Is the guy that buys a car with known faults ,fixes them then flogs it a year later for loads of profit a trader ?
If you can't spot a dodgy driveway trader should you be out buying a car on your own ?
They are so easy to spot .
I am finding it hard to understand why it is acceptable to most people here, to put a duff car into a car auction where someone like me might buy it with no comeback, but selling a decent car off my driveway and making a few quid is somehow bad behaviour !
Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
daemon said:
C70R said:
Stop being such a hysterical blouse.
I'm not talking about people shifting 50 high-end cars a year off their driveway, listed on Ebay as "Dazza's Luxury Motors". That's clearly misleading, and you won't get any argument from anyone.
So why does a regular trader have to stand over his cars, but someone only doing a handful a year not? I'm not talking about people shifting 50 high-end cars a year off their driveway, listed on Ebay as "Dazza's Luxury Motors". That's clearly misleading, and you won't get any argument from anyone.
Can you show us the distinction in the CRA 2015?
C70R said:
Tell me this, what is the difference in the obligation of the purchaser when buying from an occasional (2-3 a year) driveway trader ('masquerading' as a private seller) and any other normal private seller?
The answer, unless you're looking for something to foam at the mouth about, is nothing. There's every chance that a private seller could knowingly/unknowingly sell you a dud, particularly at the lower end of the market (as in this example). It's the job of the buyer to approach every private sale with their eyes open, no matter who they are buying from.
Uh Huh - and if you buy from a trader you have rights. Pretending to be a private seller is seeking to take those rights away from the buyer.The answer, unless you're looking for something to foam at the mouth about, is nothing. There's every chance that a private seller could knowingly/unknowingly sell you a dud, particularly at the lower end of the market (as in this example). It's the job of the buyer to approach every private sale with their eyes open, no matter who they are buying from.
And are you now saying that its the buyers fault if they buy a dud from a trader masquerading as a private seller??
C70R said:
Provided that the seller is not deliberately withholding/disguising major faults (as the OP was not), and the seller is not pretending to be a registered trader (as the OP was not), I can't see why it's worth getting so worked up about this.
Because they're trading and not meeting the obligations every other legal trader is obliged to meet and moreoften they'll cut corners, botch fixes and not disclose faults to make a quick buck - all unbeknown to an innocent buyer.Out of curiosity, how would you feel if your son / dad / sister bought a car off some driveway trader who'd bought a car at an auction one night, ran a sponge over it the following morning, the car turned out to have an expensive fault and the seller said "sorry pal, i only do this part time so i dont have to stand over it"?
If we're back in the scenario that I mentioned earlier ("Dazza's Luxury Motors" on Ebay), then of course I'd be chasing recourse. As I said (in case the spittle on your screen obscured it), you'd be hard-pressed to find any reasonable person who disagrees with that. If we're in the scenario that the bloke shifts a car or two a year on while pretending to be a private seller, it's exactly the same as buying from a private seller. If you go and buy a car privately (irrespective of whether the seller is our imaginary low-volume trader or not), then the onus is on you to check the car properly. That doesn't change.
OR, how would you feel if in your line of work - whatever that may be - if there were rogue traders undercutting you by avoiding taxes and not standing over their work and not providing a quality product?
Are EITHER of those remotely fair? And as they're not, why should anyone tolerate it?
Should we tolerate rogue builders? Sure wheres the harm? Build one or two extensions a year, dont pay taxes, dont have proper insurance, maybe not a perfect job because they dont know what they're doing and there'll be the odd botch covered up and they'll not stand over the work, but wheres the harm?
Terrible analogy. The example we're discussing (before you got all hysterical) is the bloke shifting on 1-2 cars a year and not pretending to be (or representing himself as) a trader.
Edited by daemon on Saturday 5th August 13:20
You seem like you're deliberately using the most extreme scenarios as a way to make a more general point. And, frankly, it's making you look like a bit silly.
I've added a couple of bold replies in-line above, but I would imagine that this is only going to make your replies increase in shrill-ness and use of emotive language.
Shuvi McTupya said:
I am finding it hard to understand why it is acceptable to most people here, to put a duff car into a car auction where someone like me might buy it with no comeback, but selling a decent car off my driveway and making a few quid is somehow bad behaviour !
Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
Most people understand this. However, this is PH, where taking the moral highground (and using extreme examples and emotive language) matters.Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
C70R said:
Most people understand this. However, this is PH, where taking the moral highground (and using extreme examples and emotive language) matters.
It would appear so!These days you can even check the MOT history before coming to view the car which should give you a good idea of faults to look for.
Or just bring a mate who has a clue, or even get an inspection..I might even go halves with someone on the cost if they wanted to do that.
C70R said:
Stop being such a hysterical blouse.
You seem like you're deliberately using the most extreme scenarios as a way to make a more general point. And, frankly, it's making you look like a bit silly.
I've added a couple of bold replies in-line above, but I would imagine that this is only going to make your replies increase in shrill-ness and use of emotive language.
Is this your "phrase of the week"? You've used it about 5 times so far. You seem like you're deliberately using the most extreme scenarios as a way to make a more general point. And, frankly, it's making you look like a bit silly.
I've added a couple of bold replies in-line above, but I would imagine that this is only going to make your replies increase in shrill-ness and use of emotive language.
.I'm not using extreme examples, i'm using real world examples. Just have a look at how many "private sellers" there are on gumtree selling on cars they've no clue about and not checked over just to make a quick buck.
I was a legitimate motor trader for a long long time and its VERY frustrating when you see "private traders" reselling cars that you know they've no intentions at all of standing over and will "meet you at tescos", yet the general public expect you to compete on price with that when you're checking the car over, resolving any issues, maybe servicing it and sticking a years MOT on it and accepting any come back on the car - as you are legally obliged to do when these guys happily doctor a car up to "get it away" and advertise it from a disposable mobile phone.
Likewise how many times do you read on here of people who've been caught by people like that?
If you've no morals or are that big a knuckle dragger that the only way you can get a few £s in is by doing it in a deceitful way then yes, its the way to go - but dont expect anyone with half an ounce of morals to condine or support it and dont expect much sympathy when it all goes wrong and you're caught out.
The people who do it arent some "Robin Hood" type figures "beating the system" they've pond life scum frankly.
Shuvi McTupya said:
I am finding it hard to understand why it is acceptable to most people here, to put a duff car into a car auction where someone like me might buy it with no comeback, but selling a decent car off my driveway and making a few quid is somehow bad behaviour !
Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
Because if you put a car through the auction its accepted as the terms of that auction that you're taking the car as is (although if its not "as described" you DO have come back at auction).Of course I couldn't offer a warrantee on it, but they buyer isn't paying forecourt prices.
If people buy from a private seller they have certain rights.
If they buy from a trader they have certain rights.
Masquerading as a private seller when you're flogging on something you've picked up the night before and have no intentions of standing over is removing peoples rights to line your own pockets.
If you want to be that sort of pond life, go right ahead, but they do usually get caught out at some point.
daemon said:
Because if you put a car through the auction its accepted as the terms of that auction that you're taking the car as is (although if its not "as described" you DO have come back at auction).
If people buy from a private seller they have certain rights.
If they buy from a trader they have certain rights.
Masquerading as a private seller when you're flogging on something you've picked up the night before and have no intentions of standing over is removing peoples rights to line your own pockets.
If you want to be that sort of pond life, go right ahead, but they do usually get caught out at some point.
Pond life? If people buy from a private seller they have certain rights.
If they buy from a trader they have certain rights.
Masquerading as a private seller when you're flogging on something you've picked up the night before and have no intentions of standing over is removing peoples rights to line your own pockets.
If you want to be that sort of pond life, go right ahead, but they do usually get caught out at some point.
So you think it is fine for auction houses to line their pockets selling hundreds of cars a week they won't 'stand over' ?
But if I take the risk and end up buying a good one from them I am pond life if I sell it on for a few quid extra, but I am upstanding citizen if the car turns out to be a lemon and I allow the auction to sell it on my behalf to some poor schmuck!
I think you have strange ethics!
C70R said:
ignore all the wallies who will tell you about declaring tax and offering warranties. You fix it and sell it as you would any other used car - give the buyer a plausible reason for sale
, and everyone walks away happy.
So if its all great and ok and nobody is getting a bad deal and everyone is walking away happy why not just put "Trade" in the advert? Then just say you buy and sell the odd car?, and everyone walks away happy.
Why give a "plausible reason" for the sale? Why not just man up and say you're trade?
Edited by daemon on Saturday 5th August 18:02
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff