Is this legal...
Discussion
Hello,
Having checked everywhere i cannot find a satisfactory answer to the following situation(s).
1.) Driving without wingmirrors/rear view mirrors. I have a 74' landie and like to take the doors and windscreen off for the summer, unfortunately this includes the mirrors. I do however have a totally unobstructed 360 degree field of vision when in this situation, so i can check whats going on with ease(and safely). I know its a requirement for the MOT, but i haven't actually seen anything in law!.
2.) Overloading laws. Are these based on maximum allowable axel weight, or just if all the occupants are seated properly? -without going over weight limit. (obviously seatbelts in back not an issue for vehicles before '84) e.g. bench seats can fit 3 a side, when it says 2x2 bench seats in the specs. However, the seating capacity on the V5C is a blank -therefore is this open to interperatation?. This effectively means instead of carrying 6 maximum, 8 can in fact be carried?.
Thanks for your help! (i REALLY don't want points, im only 21!)
Having checked everywhere i cannot find a satisfactory answer to the following situation(s).
1.) Driving without wingmirrors/rear view mirrors. I have a 74' landie and like to take the doors and windscreen off for the summer, unfortunately this includes the mirrors. I do however have a totally unobstructed 360 degree field of vision when in this situation, so i can check whats going on with ease(and safely). I know its a requirement for the MOT, but i haven't actually seen anything in law!.
2.) Overloading laws. Are these based on maximum allowable axel weight, or just if all the occupants are seated properly? -without going over weight limit. (obviously seatbelts in back not an issue for vehicles before '84) e.g. bench seats can fit 3 a side, when it says 2x2 bench seats in the specs. However, the seating capacity on the V5C is a blank -therefore is this open to interperatation?. This effectively means instead of carrying 6 maximum, 8 can in fact be carried?.
Thanks for your help! (i REALLY don't want points, im only 21!)
iirc you need 2 mirrors on the vehicle for it to be roadworthy.
as for loading....im not too sure on that one,i do know that when my dad was driving black cabs you could easily carry 5 passengers,although they were only licensed and insured to carry 4.....hence in a crash,if you had 5 onboard,you were fecked.
wouldnt changing the seating to 8 change the classification on tax and who is allowed to drive it?.....might be worth looking into as you dont need to be told that you could no longer drive it cos its classed as a minibus and you havnt got the relevent license.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 11th April 00:14
as for loading....im not too sure on that one,i do know that when my dad was driving black cabs you could easily carry 5 passengers,although they were only licensed and insured to carry 4.....hence in a crash,if you had 5 onboard,you were fecked.
wouldnt changing the seating to 8 change the classification on tax and who is allowed to drive it?.....might be worth looking into as you dont need to be told that you could no longer drive it cos its classed as a minibus and you havnt got the relevent license.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Monday 11th April 00:14
See: Summaries of construction and use regulations for motor vehicles - Mirrors on Motor Vehicles . [This was the first hit for an Internet seach using the term:" mirrors 'construction and use' ", BTW.]
Basically this says:
> 8 seated pax : 1 internal + 1 external. Type depends on whether registration was before or after 1 June 1978
<= 8 seated pax : pre 1/6/78 - cars 1 int OR 1 ext, dual purpose - 1 int AND 1 ext; post 1/6/78 - cars + DPVs - 1 int AND 1 ext. Again type changes on 1/6/78.
Streaky
Basically this says:
> 8 seated pax : 1 internal + 1 external. Type depends on whether registration was before or after 1 June 1978
<= 8 seated pax : pre 1/6/78 - cars 1 int OR 1 ext, dual purpose - 1 int AND 1 ext; post 1/6/78 - cars + DPVs - 1 int AND 1 ext. Again type changes on 1/6/78.
Streaky
In a nutshell. You must have 2 mirrors.
One can be inside the vehicle and central so you can see through the rear window (if there is one such as your case or a van with no rear windows). The other must be on the offside or in the case of no internal mirror both offside and nearside.
With regards to weight, your Landrover comes under the classifiaction of a 'dual purpose vehicle' You will find the relevant allowable weights stamped onto the VIN plate.
These will include front and rear axle weights and also the vehicles gross weight (GVW)
If you are pulling a trailer, then there will also be a train weight which you must not exceed.
Vehicles are weighed including fuel, all load and that includes passengers when they are taken to a weighbridge by the police. The fines for exceeding weight limits are high so be careful.
One can be inside the vehicle and central so you can see through the rear window (if there is one such as your case or a van with no rear windows). The other must be on the offside or in the case of no internal mirror both offside and nearside.
With regards to weight, your Landrover comes under the classifiaction of a 'dual purpose vehicle' You will find the relevant allowable weights stamped onto the VIN plate.
These will include front and rear axle weights and also the vehicles gross weight (GVW)
If you are pulling a trailer, then there will also be a train weight which you must not exceed.
Vehicles are weighed including fuel, all load and that includes passengers when they are taken to a weighbridge by the police. The fines for exceeding weight limits are high so be careful.
R400
Mirror has been dealt with.
Weight. Your Landie is a dual purpose vehicle and if I remember correctly it will have a plate somewhere on it giving the Max overall weight (vehicle + driver + passengers) and axle weights not to be exceeded. Going over eight passengers then you are into the realms of a tachograph and all that entails.
DVD
Mirror has been dealt with.
Weight. Your Landie is a dual purpose vehicle and if I remember correctly it will have a plate somewhere on it giving the Max overall weight (vehicle + driver + passengers) and axle weights not to be exceeded. Going over eight passengers then you are into the realms of a tachograph and all that entails.
DVD
gone said:
In a nutshell. You must have 2 mirrors.
One can be inside the vehicle and central so you can see through the rear window (if there is one such as your case or a van with no rear windows). The other must be on the offside or in the case of no internal mirror both offside and nearside.
Interesting, so my Dad's 1974 LHD Alfa Romeo Giulia Saloon with a (rather large) internal mirror and a NS (i.e. driver's side) external mirror shouldn't have passed its MoT?
gone said:
In a nutshell. You must have 2 mirrors.
One can be inside the vehicle and central so you can see through the rear window (if there is one such as your case or a van with no rear windows). The other must be on the offside or in the case of no internal mirror both offside and nearside.
I don't think this is correct for a 1974 vehicle. Looking in various classic car mags, there are loads of pictures of cars with a single interior mirror and no wing or door mirrors. I'm pretty sure that my 70's Alfas only had one mirror. Could be my memory playing tricks, but I don't think so...
grahamdance said:Not something I've ever really thought to hard about, but I guess near/off-side is determined by the side of the road on which the car is (supposed to be) driven.
So the NS in a LHD car driving in the UK would be on which side?
Driver's/Passenger's-side is obviously determined by which side of the car the driving controls are, although this does present a problem when you are talking about a MacLaren F1.
Regulation 33 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates the requirements for mirrors on motor vehicles. The items listed below show the need for mirrors to be fitted to various vehicles and the requirements to be complied with by any mirror fitted.
See also the construction requirements.
Item 1.
There are no requirements for mirrors to be fitted if a motor vehicle is:
(a) drawing a trailer, if a person is carried on the trailer so that he has an uninterrupted view to the rear and has an efficient means of communicating to the driver the effect of signals given by the drivers of other vehicles to the rear:
(b) a works truck; a track-laying agricultural motor vehicle or a wheeled agricultural motor vehicle first used before 1st June 1978; if, in each case, the driver can easily obtain a view to the rear:
(c) a pedestrian-controlled vehicle
(d) a chassis being driven from the place where it has been manufactured to the place where it is to receive a vehicle body: or
(e) an agricultural motor vehicle which has an unladen weight exceeding 7370 kg and which is either a track-laying vehicle; or is a wheeled vehicle first used before 1st June 1978.
However, if mirrors are fitted to any of the above vehicles they must comply with the following requirements:
(a) if the vehicle is a wheeled vehicle first used on or after 1st June 1978
(i) item 2 of Annex 1 to Community Directive 71/127 or 79/795; OR
(ii) Annex II to Community Directive 86/562 or 88/321; OR (iii) paragraphs 4 to 8 of ECE Regulations 46.01
AND paragraph (4) of this regulation
(b) in any other case, they must comply with para (3) of this regulation.
Item 2
A motor vehicle, not included in item 1, which is:
(a) a wheeled locomotive or a wheeled motor tractor
(b) an agricultural motor vehicle, not being a track-laying vehicle with an unladen weight not exceeding 7370 kg (which falls in item 8) or a wheeled agricultural motor vehicle first used after 1st June 1986 which is driven at more than 20 mph (which falls in item 6); or
(c) a works truck
must have at least one mirror fitted externally on the offside. Any mirror fitted to these vehicles must comply with the requirements of paragraphs (2) and (3).
Item 3.
A wheeled motor vehicle not included in item 1 first used on or after 1st April 1983 which is:
(a) a bus ; or
(b) a goods vehicle with a maximum gross weight
(a) one mirror fitted externally on the offside; and
(b) one mirror fitted internally, unless not providing an adequate view to the rear; and
(c) one fitted externally on the nearside unless an adequate internal one is fitted.
The construction of all mirrors fitted must comply with item 2 of Annex I to Community Directive 71/127 or 79/795 or Annex II to Community Directive 86/562 or 88/321 or paragraphs 4 to 8 of ECE Regulation 46.01.
I missed the year being 74!
You are correct. Here is the regulation about vehicles registered before 1st June 78.
So the Land Rover in question does not need 2 mirrors!
See also the construction requirements.
Item 1.
There are no requirements for mirrors to be fitted if a motor vehicle is:
(a) drawing a trailer, if a person is carried on the trailer so that he has an uninterrupted view to the rear and has an efficient means of communicating to the driver the effect of signals given by the drivers of other vehicles to the rear:
(b) a works truck; a track-laying agricultural motor vehicle or a wheeled agricultural motor vehicle first used before 1st June 1978; if, in each case, the driver can easily obtain a view to the rear:
(c) a pedestrian-controlled vehicle
(d) a chassis being driven from the place where it has been manufactured to the place where it is to receive a vehicle body: or
(e) an agricultural motor vehicle which has an unladen weight exceeding 7370 kg and which is either a track-laying vehicle; or is a wheeled vehicle first used before 1st June 1978.
However, if mirrors are fitted to any of the above vehicles they must comply with the following requirements:
(a) if the vehicle is a wheeled vehicle first used on or after 1st June 1978
(i) item 2 of Annex 1 to Community Directive 71/127 or 79/795; OR
(ii) Annex II to Community Directive 86/562 or 88/321; OR (iii) paragraphs 4 to 8 of ECE Regulations 46.01
AND paragraph (4) of this regulation
(b) in any other case, they must comply with para (3) of this regulation.
Item 2
A motor vehicle, not included in item 1, which is:
(a) a wheeled locomotive or a wheeled motor tractor
(b) an agricultural motor vehicle, not being a track-laying vehicle with an unladen weight not exceeding 7370 kg (which falls in item 8) or a wheeled agricultural motor vehicle first used after 1st June 1986 which is driven at more than 20 mph (which falls in item 6); or
(c) a works truck
must have at least one mirror fitted externally on the offside. Any mirror fitted to these vehicles must comply with the requirements of paragraphs (2) and (3).
Item 3.
A wheeled motor vehicle not included in item 1 first used on or after 1st April 1983 which is:
(a) a bus ; or
(b) a goods vehicle with a maximum gross weight
(a) one mirror fitted externally on the offside; and
(b) one mirror fitted internally, unless not providing an adequate view to the rear; and
(c) one fitted externally on the nearside unless an adequate internal one is fitted.
The construction of all mirrors fitted must comply with item 2 of Annex I to Community Directive 71/127 or 79/795 or Annex II to Community Directive 86/562 or 88/321 or paragraphs 4 to 8 of ECE Regulation 46.01.
I missed the year being 74!
You are correct. Here is the regulation about vehicles registered before 1st June 78.
So the Land Rover in question does not need 2 mirrors!
okay, thanks alot for the help!
I've gotten away with it thus far, there is widesperad confusion about mirrors on older vehicles, even with the police. They don't seem to mind really and have been pretty cool about it, but ill just whack on an offside mirror to be on the safe side... or i could just unbolt all my body pannels apart from the bonnet and claim its a chassis under construction.. :P
I've gotten away with it thus far, there is widesperad confusion about mirrors on older vehicles, even with the police. They don't seem to mind really and have been pretty cool about it, but ill just whack on an offside mirror to be on the safe side... or i could just unbolt all my body pannels apart from the bonnet and claim its a chassis under construction.. :P
Its quite simple, exactly like checking a blind spot -which you should do b4 overtaking, turning left etc- but look around a little more (and you can't check your blind spot without looking sideways anyway!) prolly takes about a second. Good idea about the series 2a wingmirrors btw. For the record, i have since fitted a nearside mirror anyway (don't need offside as no obstructions and im never in any right hand lanes of motorways etc for obvious reasons..) better to be safe than sorry 
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