Someone got caught speeding, might have been me.

[Cat]

NickM450 said:

Really? I've only been driving 7 years so still quite new but I've never heard of that and never been asked to do so. Mind you, I've only worked for one company and the most we've had to do is sign out non tacho vehicles, no me tion of recording driving time etc.

Yes really. Commercial driving of any goods vehicle which is not subject to EU rules (with a few exceptions not relevant in your case) is covered by GB domestic rules.

GB domestic rules impose restrictions on the number of duty hours and the number driving hours a person can carry out.

Even if all your driving is in a goods vehicle with a GVW not exceeding 3500kg you are still subject to domestic rules but are not required to keep any record for driving/duty hours.

Because there is no legal requirement to record hours for those who only drive vehicles up to 3500kg, domestic rules for these drivers are pretty much unenforceable/unenforced.

If, as in your case, on a particular day, someone also drives a vehicle subject to operator licensing (assuming that the they drive for more than 4 hours or travel outwith a 50km radius of the operating base) there is a legal requirement under GB domestic rules to keep a record of all your driving and duty times for that day.

Those doing mixed EU/domestic rules driving could end up in bother if they're not keeping proper records.

Keeping the required records would also help in situations such as the one you find yourself in.

Cat

[TwigtheWonderkid]

MorganP104 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I rather suspect management are really, really hoping they can find somebody to take the points - because otherwise, somebody is going to be having a very tricky chat about their abysmal record-keeping.

This, I believe, gets to the nub of it.

^^THIS. Tell them in the absence of any records that they are obligated to keep, you will be returning the form saying you weren't the driver and nominating the managing director. Let them pick the bones out of that.

Cheeky fkers.

[Drive Blind]

whatever way you decide to go with this OP - to put up a fight or take one for the team - I advise you to start keeping your own detailed records from now on.

[havoc]

Final thought - you NEED your licence for your job.

If you 'take this one' because you feel pressurised to by your company, what happens if you miss a limit sign or a hidden camera 3x more in the next 3 years (easily done if you do big miles...), and find yourself facing a totting-up ban?!? Do you think they'll put up a fight to help you keep your licence, given the way they're trying to fit you up now???

Because if not then there's your job and livelihood gone for 6 months...

[M3Gar]

Any updates on this?

[7795]

xjay1337 said:

Ask to see photographic evidence if they have it.

It's on them to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that you were driving.

The directors of the business can get in a lot of trouble if records are not being kept appropriately. Ideally every van should be signed out and back in at a given time with a unique identifier for each driver.

It's in the director's interest to put a name, any name forwards then?!

Stand your ground and try to get off and in which case the official shoeing will happen further up you work chain. Points of grief from work (i'm working on the basis that there will be a petty-minded little oik who will take it personally if they get a kicking instead of you getting points!).

Edited by 7795 on Wednesday 27th September 16:44

[NickM450]

Received the Notice of Intended Prosecution form today, I've read through it several times and at no point can I figure out what I am supposed to do. Here are the options:



I'll see if I can get the contact information and call them for information.

[SantaBarbara]

Tick box three dispute that you were the driver

[TooMany2cvs]

SantaBarbara said:

Tick box three dispute that you were the driver

Box three is disputing the vehicle was there.

Box four is nearest - you weren't driving, and don't know who. Start the explanation with "I am not the keeper, but have been nominated as driver."

[NickM450]

Box 3 is disputing the vehicle was at the scene.

[SS2.]

You are not required to complete their form.

A letter containing the information required is perfectly valid.

[SantaBarbara]

NickM450 said:

Received the Notice of Intended Prosecution form today, I've read through it several times and at no point can I figure out what I am supposed to do. Here are the options:



I'll see if I can get the contact information and call them for information.

What does it say about location. Time and speed?

[cmaguire]

SS2. said:

You are not required to complete their form.

A letter containing the information required is perfectly valid.

Sounds better to me.

So often these 'letters' sent out for traffic offences only permit you to incriminate yourself or grass someone else up, with no other options permitted.

[NickM450]

SS2. said:

You are not required to complete their form.

A letter containing the information required is perfectly valid.

Really? Sorry for all the questions but I've not been in this situation before. Do I fill anything out or just send a letter with the uncompleted form included or complete 'Step1' sign the form and include a letter? What exactly do I do?

I'm even more sure it wasn't me now, here is the picture:



Me in the middle lane for no reason? I think not!

[hairyben]

Red Devil said:

Quite. If their record keeping is that lax from where does their 99% certainty that you were the culprit originate?*

This.

Either they have records or they dont. You have every right to ask to see and understand the evidence of how they arrive at your name - perhaps I missed it but has this been covered?

If you werent the driver and plead guilty to this, isnit not the case you could be prosecuted for perjury? Possibility of jail time?

You do a driving job and many jobs requiring driving also have restrictions on how many points you can have.

The company may not recognise a union (whatever that means) but they can provide you with advice, help and assistance and right now is not too late to join.

[SS2.]

NickM450 said:

SS2. said:

You are not required to complete their form.

A letter containing the information required is perfectly valid.

Really? Sorry for all the questions but I've not been in this situation before. Do I fill anything out or just send a letter with the uncompleted form included or complete 'Step1' sign the form and include a letter? What exactly do I do?

Yes, really.

As a person other than keeper, you have a statutory obligation under s.172 RTA 1988 to provide any information which is in your power to give and which may lead to identification of the driver.

If you write back to them and tell them everything you do know (including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence), they'll probably redirect their enquiries back to the company.

If you were to be summonsed for failing to provide driver details, the Crown would need to prove that you had information which was in your power to give and that you failed to give it. By telling them everything in a letter now, and absent evidence from your employer confirming you were the driver, you should be home free.

The same might not be said for your employer.

Regarding your reply itself (which needs to be with the SCP / police not later than 28 days from when it was served), simply make a copy of the s.172 form, write 'Please see attached' across it and staple it to your letter.

[justinio]

It's much easier for the manager if you take this one on the chin. Some very awkward questions are going to be directed his way, from his managers regarding record keeping if you dont cop to this.

Said manager sounds like a bit of a useless tosspot, so I wouldnt be rushing to do him many favours.

If, as you say, you cant remember, then dispute it. You will probably get yourself removed from the managers christmas card list, but st happens.

[TooMany2cvs]

SS2. said:

(including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence)

Umm, not quite - the tacho showed he stopped driving a completely different (larger) vehicle hours before, then clock-off showed he stopped working half an hour after.

[NickM450]

SS2. said:

Yes, really.

As a person other than keeper, you have a statutory obligation under s.172 RTA 1988 to provide any information which is in your power to give and which may lead to identification of the driver.

If you write back to them and tell them everything you do know (including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence), they'll probably redirect their enquiries back to the company.

If you were to be summonsed for failing to provide driver details, the Crown would need to prove that you had information which was in your power to give and that you failed to give it. By telling them everything in a letter now, and absent evidence from your employer confirming you were the driver, you should be home free.

The same might not be said for your employer.

Regarding your reply itself (which needs to be with the SCP / police not later than 28 days from when it was served), simply make a copy of the s.172 form, write 'Please see attached' across it and staple it to your letter.

I will do that, shall I still fill in Part 1 of the form, my name & address, and sign it or leave of completely blank?

Also, I stopped removed my tacho at 12:30 that day but I was still on duty at 19:00. The offence happened at 18:30. I could have been in any of the 5 or so vans we have or still in the office, that's more likely at 18:30 just before I clocked out.

[SS2.]

TooMany2cvs said:

SS2. said:

(including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence)

Umm, not quite - the tacho showed he stopped driving a completely different (larger) vehicle hours before, then clock-off showed he stopped working half an hour after.

Oh I see - completely misread that bit.