Someone got caught speeding, might have been me.
Discussion
NickM450 said:
SS2. said:
Yes, really.
As a person other than keeper, you have a statutory obligation under s.172 RTA 1988 to provide any information which is in your power to give and which may lead to identification of the driver.
If you write back to them and tell them everything you do know (including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence), they'll probably redirect their enquiries back to the company.
If you were to be summonsed for failing to provide driver details, the Crown would need to prove that you had information which was in your power to give and that you failed to give it. By telling them everything in a letter now, and absent evidence from your employer confirming you were the driver, you should be home free.
The same might not be said for your employer.
Regarding your reply itself (which needs to be with the SCP / police not later than 28 days from when it was served), simply make a copy of the s.172 form, write 'Please see attached' across it and staple it to your letter.
I will do that, shall I still fill in Part 1 of the form, my name & address, and sign it or leave of completely blank?As a person other than keeper, you have a statutory obligation under s.172 RTA 1988 to provide any information which is in your power to give and which may lead to identification of the driver.
If you write back to them and tell them everything you do know (including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence), they'll probably redirect their enquiries back to the company.
If you were to be summonsed for failing to provide driver details, the Crown would need to prove that you had information which was in your power to give and that you failed to give it. By telling them everything in a letter now, and absent evidence from your employer confirming you were the driver, you should be home free.
The same might not be said for your employer.
Regarding your reply itself (which needs to be with the SCP / police not later than 28 days from when it was served), simply make a copy of the s.172 form, write 'Please see attached' across it and staple it to your letter.
Also, I stopped removed my tacho at 12:30 that day but I was still on duty at 19:00. The offence happened at 18:30. I could have been in any of the 5 or so vans we have or still in the office, that's more likely at 18:30 just before I clocked out.
If you truly believe you were not driving, and absent evidence from your employer that you were behind the wheel, then the advice stands - write a letter and tell them everything you do know ie explain why you do not believe it was you driving at that time.
NickM450 said:
I'm even more sure it wasn't me now, here is the picture:
For clarity, can you summarise all reasons why you don't believe it was you ?Edited by SS2. on Saturday 30th September 14:15
NickM450 said:
Already started the letter 
For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
Endorse a copy of the form with 'Please see attached' in big, bold text and staple it to your letter. Other than that, leave it blank.For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
Clearly, your letter will be signed and contain your name, address, reference numbers, etc etc.
NickM450 said:
Already started the letter
For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
If you arent going to complete it fully then dont sign it. Someone on the receiving end might be 'helpful' and fill in any missing details for you.For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
justinio said:
NickM450 said:
Already started the letter
For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
If you arent going to complete it fully then dont sign it. Someone on the receiving end might be 'helpful' and fill in any missing details for you.For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
I have the impression you are being compelled to take the rap, either for someone else, and/or for slack record keeping, and to keep your job. An unenviable position I imagine.
NickM450 said:
Already started the letter
For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
It may be best to visit a police station and speak to a sarge and tel him the facts so far. And say you believe your boss has issued a false declaration to the office who send out the speeding lettersFor fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?
I don't wish to be alarmist, but OP needs to ensure s/he has accurate records of conversations with boss. I think we may be going further beyond the issue of a speeding fine to constructive dismissal in the worst extreme. I recognise we are in the 'gig' economy, and fair play seems to have gone out the window.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5...
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5...
Pica-Pica said:
I don't wish to be alarmist, but OP needs to ensure s/he has accurate records of conversations with boss. I think we may be going further beyond the issue of a speeding fine to constructive dismissal in the worst extreme. I recognise we are in the 'gig' economy, and fair play seems to have gone out the window.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5...
That's is eerily similar http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5...
I'm no letter writer so any advice or recommendations are appreciated:
On the 29th of September I received a Notice of Intended Prosecution. I received this bacause my employer has named me as the driver of the vehicle involved, I have inlcuded a copy of the letter for your reference.
I do not believe I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offence, to back this up I have the following evidence for your information:
No vehicle check sheets for that day are available.
No vehicle sign out sheets authorised by a manager are available.
No invoices or paperwork relatng to a delivery on that day in that area that inlcude my details are available.
The vehicle is in the middle lane of a motorway with no traffic on the inside lane, I do not drive in this manor, ever.
I know this section of road very well and am very aware of the changing speed limits and always adhere to them.
In short, there is no evidence to say that I was the driver, no paperwork, no invoices and no camera footage of me. In my place of work any driver, from a pool of 150+, warehouse team, team manager or member of staff could have taken the vehicle without any signatures or paperwork being filled in, the keys are not kept in a secure place and are avalable to all. I have no reclection of being in that vehicle or on that road at the time of the offence.
Edited by NickM450 on Saturday 30th September 15:55
Curious about the following.
Can't quite tell, but time on photo may be 18:31?
Your shift ended at 19:00. Assume that you typically leave (form your office location) promptly.
Where was the offence relative to your office? How long would it take to get to the office from that spot?
Is the van heading towards the office or away? If away, is it still possible that the van driver could have done whatever was required (delivery? Any record?) and returned to the office by 19:00?
Can't quite tell, but time on photo may be 18:31?
Your shift ended at 19:00. Assume that you typically leave (form your office location) promptly.
Where was the offence relative to your office? How long would it take to get to the office from that spot?
Is the van heading towards the office or away? If away, is it still possible that the van driver could have done whatever was required (delivery? Any record?) and returned to the office by 19:00?
Quite possible that the driver of the van was caught on that stretch of the M4 and be back at the depot to leave for 19:00, it would be a bit tight but possible.
The van was heading towards the depot, as for paperwork there is none to say the driver was in the area, the best my manager has is an invoice from a delivery in Oxford on the same day. We are in Bristol, however the invoice does not have a driver's signature on it or time, this is another reason my manager believe it to be me, I have been to that delivery before.
The van was heading towards the depot, as for paperwork there is none to say the driver was in the area, the best my manager has is an invoice from a delivery in Oxford on the same day. We are in Bristol, however the invoice does not have a driver's signature on it or time, this is another reason my manager believe it to be me, I have been to that delivery before.
Surprised no-one else has jumped on this yet.. but manner and recollection would be better. 
Glad to see you standing up for yourself here OP, hope the good advice keeps coming to help you.
Sounds like the 'evidence' you have points to more that "it could have been anyone", rather than "it wasn't me". Which of these does it need to be?
FWIW, I believe you.. but feel that your company has let you (and themselves) down by not having cast iron proof of exactly who was driving each vehicle at any moment in time... For this reason I'd love to see a manager / company sec take the fall for this.
Glad to see you standing up for yourself here OP, hope the good advice keeps coming to help you.
Sounds like the 'evidence' you have points to more that "it could have been anyone", rather than "it wasn't me". Which of these does it need to be?
FWIW, I believe you.. but feel that your company has let you (and themselves) down by not having cast iron proof of exactly who was driving each vehicle at any moment in time... For this reason I'd love to see a manager / company sec take the fall for this.
Chester draws said:
Surprised no-one else has jumped on this yet.. but manner and recollection would be better.
Glad to see you standing up for yourself here OP, hope the good advice keeps coming to help you.
Sounds like the 'evidence' you have points to more that "it could have been anyone", rather than "it wasn't me". Which of these does it need to be?
FWIW, I believe you.. but feel that your company has let you (and themselves) down by not having cast iron proof of exactly who was driving each vehicle at any moment in time... For this reason I'd love to see a manager / company sec take the fall for this.
If a few spelling errors are the worst bit about my other then I'm a happy man Glad to see you standing up for yourself here OP, hope the good advice keeps coming to help you.
Sounds like the 'evidence' you have points to more that "it could have been anyone", rather than "it wasn't me". Which of these does it need to be?
FWIW, I believe you.. but feel that your company has let you (and themselves) down by not having cast iron proof of exactly who was driving each vehicle at any moment in time... For this reason I'd love to see a manager / company sec take the fall for this.
cmaguire said:
I haven't noticed anywhere the mention of what the limit and what the alleged speed are.
All other things aside, in a sane world I doubt any of this would even be happening.
Vehicle was clocked at 68 on a smart motorway where the limit was 60.All other things aside, in a sane world I doubt any of this would even be happening.
t over something entirely trivial.I've only scanned page one on this but quite interesting about your employer saying that they are 99% sure.
At my employer we have certain exemptions and regulations around road traffic law. Some don't like it but, as being seen as someone in charge, I like to ensure that records are filled in properly to ensure we are bullet proof about certain exemptions and who is driving which vehicle at which time.
Certain employees don't like it but they tend to be the ones trying to do things wrong.
If your employee doesn't have a set of written regulations or guidelines about filling in paperwork then not only will they be liable but it will also be easier for the employee to get off with it.
As far as your case goes, tell your employer to provide evidence it was you. They should be able to point 100% at you.
At my employer we have certain exemptions and regulations around road traffic law. Some don't like it but, as being seen as someone in charge, I like to ensure that records are filled in properly to ensure we are bullet proof about certain exemptions and who is driving which vehicle at which time.
Certain employees don't like it but they tend to be the ones trying to do things wrong.
If your employee doesn't have a set of written regulations or guidelines about filling in paperwork then not only will they be liable but it will also be easier for the employee to get off with it.
As far as your case goes, tell your employer to provide evidence it was you. They should be able to point 100% at you.
I've no legal experience, but to me, typos aside your letter reads just fine - hits the relevant points, and directs them straight back at a company that has no record-keeping.
Definitely follow the advice above - PHOTOCOPY the NIP (both sides) and your signed letter, then send the original letter with the original back to the SCP. Send it registered post, keep the proof of postage (staple to your copies), JUST in case someone at the SCP loses your letter, then wait and see what happens.
Two options:-
1) You'll get a court summons (possible), where you just have to repeat what's in the letter about the lack of record keeping and you believing you were NOT driving that van. At which point is should almost certainly go back to the Company Secretary.
2) They'll ping it straight back at the CoSec without bothering you further, and it'll create a fuss internally.
One final thought - how are HR perceived internally - are they just a mouthpiece for management, or do they have some integrity and some independence? (I've worked with both) Because if the latter, I'd go and see them the day you send the letter off and explain what's happened and that you feel like you were being pushed into taking the points to protect the company's lack of procedures...get it on record internally. Because if anything later happens regarding sudden poor performance, that note on your HR file will be a useful little piece of ammo in your defence...
Definitely follow the advice above - PHOTOCOPY the NIP (both sides) and your signed letter, then send the original letter with the original back to the SCP. Send it registered post, keep the proof of postage (staple to your copies), JUST in case someone at the SCP loses your letter, then wait and see what happens.
Two options:-
1) You'll get a court summons (possible), where you just have to repeat what's in the letter about the lack of record keeping and you believing you were NOT driving that van. At which point is should almost certainly go back to the Company Secretary.
2) They'll ping it straight back at the CoSec without bothering you further, and it'll create a fuss internally.
One final thought - how are HR perceived internally - are they just a mouthpiece for management, or do they have some integrity and some independence? (I've worked with both) Because if the latter, I'd go and see them the day you send the letter off and explain what's happened and that you feel like you were being pushed into taking the points to protect the company's lack of procedures...get it on record internally. Because if anything later happens regarding sudden poor performance, that note on your HR file will be a useful little piece of ammo in your defence...
It does sound like everything your employer has to conclude you were the driver is entirely circumstantial? Do you know why they picked you out to take the fall? As others have already said - I can see this turning messy with your employers,and could even cost you your job (which it shouldn't, as it's their ineptitude that's caused the situation). I would fight it too, if I was reasonably confident that it wasn't me, or at least no more likely to be than anyone else, but it's going to open up a can of worms for your employer.
They have put you in a somewhat difficult position - they have nominated you as the driver (without any hard evidence/records), but how do you now prove a negative. You don't think it was you that was driving, but it could have been. Safety Camera Partnership (or whoever processes the NIPs) are immediately going to be suspicious of someone who says it wasn't them (bet they hear that one all the time), and are initially more likely to believe your employer as being more credible. So you're going to have to paint a pretty damning picture/grass them up for total lack of record keeping (and the tacho thing that others have mentioned).
I'd drop the bit about "it couldn't have been me because I'm not a middle lane motorist" and "I don't break the speed limits". I'm sure you're being truthful, but it's the sort of stuff that anyone would say who's trying to get out of a ticket. I'd also probably not use the word 'available' when talking about the records/sign out sheets. That makes it sound like they may well exist. I'd go straight for the jugular: "My employer does/did not keep any records of who drives which van, and does not ask drivers to sign them in or out. There is no evidence (of which I am aware) that I was the driver of vehicle xyz on that day, or at that time. It could equally well have been any one of 150 other employees."
Pity AGTLaw hasn't seen/replied to this thread, he knows his stuff (and you might end up needing legal guidance if it gets messy).
Why did it take so long for the NIP to get round to you? You say the offence was 12th July? First NIP should have been served to registered keeper (is that your employer, or do they lease the van?) within 14 days of that. They should have responded/nominated you within 28 days, and yet you've only just received your NIP, and your employer only nominated you around 20th Sept, when you started this thread? I suppose if there's a lease company at the start of the chain that would at another step.
They have put you in a somewhat difficult position - they have nominated you as the driver (without any hard evidence/records), but how do you now prove a negative. You don't think it was you that was driving, but it could have been. Safety Camera Partnership (or whoever processes the NIPs) are immediately going to be suspicious of someone who says it wasn't them (bet they hear that one all the time), and are initially more likely to believe your employer as being more credible. So you're going to have to paint a pretty damning picture/grass them up for total lack of record keeping (and the tacho thing that others have mentioned).
I'd drop the bit about "it couldn't have been me because I'm not a middle lane motorist" and "I don't break the speed limits". I'm sure you're being truthful, but it's the sort of stuff that anyone would say who's trying to get out of a ticket. I'd also probably not use the word 'available' when talking about the records/sign out sheets. That makes it sound like they may well exist. I'd go straight for the jugular: "My employer does/did not keep any records of who drives which van, and does not ask drivers to sign them in or out. There is no evidence (of which I am aware) that I was the driver of vehicle xyz on that day, or at that time. It could equally well have been any one of 150 other employees."
Pity AGTLaw hasn't seen/replied to this thread, he knows his stuff (and you might end up needing legal guidance if it gets messy).
Why did it take so long for the NIP to get round to you? You say the offence was 12th July? First NIP should have been served to registered keeper (is that your employer, or do they lease the van?) within 14 days of that. They should have responded/nominated you within 28 days, and yet you've only just received your NIP, and your employer only nominated you around 20th Sept, when you started this thread? I suppose if there's a lease company at the start of the chain that would at another step.
I doubt OP could be held on PTCOJ. After all, there’s no concrete evidence that it wasn’t him. Technically, both the speeding offence and PTCOJ are criminal offences, so it’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt (at least, it should be). So, is the SAC worth the hassle with your boss? If you go through with it, you’ve got a big one over him...
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