Tractor pushes parked cars out of the way
Discussion
Escort3500 said:
gazza285 said:
Escort3500 said:
Singlecoil was talking about obstruction of a road and the entitlement of anyone to get past “by any means available to them”. Which could potentially include violence, criminal damage or assault amongst other things. My comment was based on the generality of the scenario and not the specific circumstances of the farmer in the LD case, which in my view would amount to
criminal damage, though the police/CPS presumably concluded otherwise.
You have over-egged the pudding by a considerable amount.criminal damage, though the police/CPS presumably concluded otherwise.
It’s not criminal damage if he believed his sheep were at risk and he had no alternative. This is a statutory defence to criminal damage::
in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
jamei303 said:
It’s not criminal damage if he believed his sheep were at risk and he had no alternative. This is a statutory defence to criminal damage::
in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
Good to see a little balance on this matter.in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
Having spent a good chunk of my life in the Lakes, it is important for people to realise that there isn't always "another way around" for instance. In this case, the parking is so shocking that I'm surprised the vehicles were still there - in years gone by (when there were reasonable police budgets and a bit less over-regulation) the Police in Hawkshead, say (when there were Police in Hawkshead...) would employ the garage in Hawkshead (also now long gone) to remove cars that were obstructing roads.
jamei303 said:
It’s not criminal damage if he believed his sheep were at risk and he had no alternative. This is a statutory defence to criminal damage::
in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
I think the posters on this thread who are supporting the selfish parkers are going to have some difficulty in getting past that... in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed:
that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.
For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.
I trust they will be aware of the irony
PF62 said:
Rovinghawk said:
tit-for-tat (in his mind).
So he is a bit thick then.PF62 said:
Don't see that stupidity should allow you to commit criminal damage.
He might see it as necessity.I agree he went too far but when nobody else is on his side how much is he expected to tolerate before taking action for himself?
I haven't read all the posts but got to about page 30. Just wanted to add my opinion on this.
If the farmer had a trailer full of sheep (probably over-filled I might add, as he was only expecting it to be a short journey) and they were getting restless, at risk of harming themselves, getting stressed, etc etc I really can't think of any other alternative decision he could have made.
He couldn't reverse and unloading the sheep into a nearby, closer field, really isn't a practical option for a number of reasons: As previously mentioned, sheep just go wherever the f
k they want when being herded, you need several people or/and dogs to do it successfully. You have to block all possible escape roots and with so many parked cars about, that would have been impossible. The sheep also would have probably ended up damaging the cars anyway. Also, the farmer might not have enough trained dogs to do it on his own and when he does do it, he might rely on his staff and a few other local farmers to help him out. I've seen quite a few farmers who don't use traditional dogs to herd livestock anymore. More often now it seems to be several people standing about and maybe a quad bike or a Discovery with a missing door, doing the work of the dog.
If that is the case, in this situation, what was he meant to do, walk the 1.5 miles back to his house, to then use his phone to call his staff and a few locals to help him out? By the time he's done that and waited for them to arrive, he's back at the situation where the sheep have become distressed. The farmer who also owns the "temporary" field, really might not appreciate it being used by a herd of sheep. It might be just "grass" but there's a whole plethora of reasons why a farmer wants to let a field grow and not put livestock in it. The field might not be secure enough to keep sheep in it either. We've all seen escaped sheep at the side of the road and wondered how the fk they got out, when there are no visible gaps in the fence.
I'm not saying that we should all be allowed to push parked cars out the way but for the majority of us, being blocked in, is just an inconvenience, this really isn't comparable to our daily lives. So what if we're late for work, miss a meeting, or have to defer our food shop for another day? For the farmer though, not getting through for several hours might mean losing thousands due to injured, trampled, overheated sheep being put down and then losing even more income because his livestock has been reduced and thus his production volume is lower and/or because he decides to buy more sheep to replace them.
Yes, maybe he should have had the foresight to realise that on this day it would be particularly busy and he should have chosen another day to move his herd but hindsight is a wonderful thing. To be honest, he probably completely forgot about it. I imagine if you're working 6am-9pm, 7 days a week, all the days just seem to merge into one. I know that when I'm doing shift work, I often forget what day it is, I'm aware of the date but as to whether it's a Monday or Thursday, well I wouldn't have a clue.
It might be a public highway but people need to remember that the reason these roads are there in the first place, is because of the farms. They weren't built so people could enjoy beauty spots, they were built because of the farms and they always need to be left clear for large vehicles to pass, whether it's tractors or HGVs delivering or collecting stuff.
If the farmer had a trailer full of sheep (probably over-filled I might add, as he was only expecting it to be a short journey) and they were getting restless, at risk of harming themselves, getting stressed, etc etc I really can't think of any other alternative decision he could have made.
He couldn't reverse and unloading the sheep into a nearby, closer field, really isn't a practical option for a number of reasons: As previously mentioned, sheep just go wherever the f
k they want when being herded, you need several people or/and dogs to do it successfully. You have to block all possible escape roots and with so many parked cars about, that would have been impossible. The sheep also would have probably ended up damaging the cars anyway. Also, the farmer might not have enough trained dogs to do it on his own and when he does do it, he might rely on his staff and a few other local farmers to help him out. I've seen quite a few farmers who don't use traditional dogs to herd livestock anymore. More often now it seems to be several people standing about and maybe a quad bike or a Discovery with a missing door, doing the work of the dog.If that is the case, in this situation, what was he meant to do, walk the 1.5 miles back to his house, to then use his phone to call his staff and a few locals to help him out? By the time he's done that and waited for them to arrive, he's back at the situation where the sheep have become distressed. The farmer who also owns the "temporary" field, really might not appreciate it being used by a herd of sheep. It might be just "grass" but there's a whole plethora of reasons why a farmer wants to let a field grow and not put livestock in it. The field might not be secure enough to keep sheep in it either. We've all seen escaped sheep at the side of the road and wondered how the f
k they got out, when there are no visible gaps in the fence.I'm not saying that we should all be allowed to push parked cars out the way but for the majority of us, being blocked in, is just an inconvenience, this really isn't comparable to our daily lives. So what if we're late for work, miss a meeting, or have to defer our food shop for another day? For the farmer though, not getting through for several hours might mean losing thousands due to injured, trampled, overheated sheep being put down and then losing even more income because his livestock has been reduced and thus his production volume is lower and/or because he decides to buy more sheep to replace them.
Yes, maybe he should have had the foresight to realise that on this day it would be particularly busy and he should have chosen another day to move his herd but hindsight is a wonderful thing. To be honest, he probably completely forgot about it. I imagine if you're working 6am-9pm, 7 days a week, all the days just seem to merge into one. I know that when I'm doing shift work, I often forget what day it is, I'm aware of the date but as to whether it's a Monday or Thursday, well I wouldn't have a clue.
It might be a public highway but people need to remember that the reason these roads are there in the first place, is because of the farms. They weren't built so people could enjoy beauty spots, they were built because of the farms and they always need to be left clear for large vehicles to pass, whether it's tractors or HGVs delivering or collecting stuff.
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