Lorry drivers who think the are the Police
Discussion
mickmcpaddy said:
I've pointed out several simple mathematical reasons why it can't work, you have proved no reason why it does, only "an expert says so, so there"
So why don't you explain how a queue that has half as many cars joining it but moves twice as slow becomes any shorter than a queue with twice as many cars joining it but moving twice as quick.
If the maths backs your POV, why would all the motoring organisations and professionals say different?So why don't you explain how a queue that has half as many cars joining it but moves twice as slow becomes any shorter than a queue with twice as many cars joining it but moving twice as quick.
So again, please provide some source to back your argument other than "because I say so".
As to your question, for the umpteenth time, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE SPEED OF TRAFFIC THROUGH THE PINCHPOINT, it is about queue length.
Try this
Or this one. It even has little toy cars so you should feel at home.
Centurion07 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
I've pointed out several simple mathematical reasons why it can't work, you have proved no reason why it does, only "an expert says so, so there"
So why don't you explain how a queue that has half as many cars joining it but moves twice as slow becomes any shorter than a queue with twice as many cars joining it but moving twice as quick.
If the maths backs your POV, why would all the motoring organisations and professionals say different?So why don't you explain how a queue that has half as many cars joining it but moves twice as slow becomes any shorter than a queue with twice as many cars joining it but moving twice as quick.
So again, please provide some source to back your argument other than "because I say so".
As to your question, for the umpteenth time, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE SPEED OF TRAFFIC THROUGH THE PINCHPOINT, it is about queue length.
Try this
Or this one. It even has little toy cars so you should feel at home.
Centurion07 said:
Still waiting for a source backing your point...
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, whether its fluids, electricity or gases, if they want to combine 2 moving objects then they make the outlet twice as big to keep the same flow or reduce the flow by half, this gives exactly the same scenario, nothing is gained or lost. If they just reduced the size by half then everything moves twice as slow. This is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
mickmcpaddy said:
...not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving,....
What do you think merging early and forcing everyone into one lane rather than using all the available road capacity is...?You don't get things moving by extending the restriction.
Edited by Centurion07 on Sunday 26th November 20:57
OpulentBob said:
mickmcpaddy said:
Centurion07 said:
Still waiting for a source backing your point...
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things movingCenturion07 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
...not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving,....
What do you think merging early and forcing everyone into one lane rather than using all the available road capacity is...?You don't get things moving by extending the restriction.
Edited by Centurion07 on Sunday 26th November 20:57
This is PRECISELY the benefit merging in turn AT THE LANE CLOSURE would bring.
The queue in second pic wouldn't be there, backing out on to the roundabout and blocking traffic that isn't even coming down this dual carriageway.
The queue in second pic wouldn't be there, backing out on to the roundabout and blocking traffic that isn't even coming down this dual carriageway.
Centurion07 said:
Here's a picture of some utter cretins playing "Road Captain":
This is the approach to the above image. At the end of this queue is a roundabout which gets pretty busy all on it's own, but when these f
kwits decide everyone should merge miles away from the cones then it gets blocked and everyone else using that roundabout gets held up even if they're not coming down this dual carriageway.
This is the approach to the above image. At the end of this queue is a roundabout which gets pretty busy all on it's own, but when these f
kwits decide everyone should merge miles away from the cones then it gets blocked and everyone else using that roundabout gets held up even if they're not coming down this dual carriageway.Centurion07 said:
This is PRECISELY the benefit merging in turn AT THE LANE CLOSURE would bring.
The queue in second pic wouldn't be there, backing out on to the roundabout and blocking traffic that isn't even coming down this dual carriageway.
See right at the front of the queue, there is a car merging in, the silver car in the left lane right behind the lorry hasn't got it brake lights on, all the other cars behind that do solely because of the merging car. It's impossible to let him in without slowing down more than if he wasn't there.The queue in second pic wouldn't be there, backing out on to the roundabout and blocking traffic that isn't even coming down this dual carriageway.
Centurion07 said:
Here's a picture of some utter cretins playing "Road Captain":
This is the approach to the above image. At the end of this queue is a roundabout which gets pretty busy all on it's own, but when these fkwits decide everyone should merge miles away from the cones then it gets blocked and everyone else using that roundabout gets held up even if they're not coming down this dual carriageway.
This is the approach to the above image. At the end of this queue is a roundabout which gets pretty busy all on it's own, but when these f
kwits decide everyone should merge miles away from the cones then it gets blocked and everyone else using that roundabout gets held up even if they're not coming down this dual carriageway.Now imagine the lane on the right was full of cars as well, every car in the left lane has to let one car from the right lane in so the left queue would still be the same length as it is now as they would all need to leave a bigger gap.
N
You're right.
Except the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
Except the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
Centurion07 said:
You're right.
Except the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
On the evidence of the last 14 pages I think you're being wildly optimisticExcept the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
It's a problem of politeness and pigheadedness.
Some people get in early, because they do not want to upset anyone in the queue or have to confront those too pig-headed to let them in near the merge.
( Although by the time such people have sat in a queue for a while, they too can become pig-headed!)
Then you have those who want to drive over the cones to gain a few feet who often annoy everyone. You know the types. You let three people merge, but they simply have to be the fourth no matter what..
It's rare to get a mixture of drivers who just understand and do all that is required.
Lorry drivers are often aware of this and the benefits of holding back and covering distance before the next stop in stop start traffic, or, keeping moving at a reasonable pace, are better for them tachograph and time wise.
It is only for their own benefit, of course (and those in front) because things do tend to keep moving when they do this. It's not right, I know, but I know why some do it.
Some people get in early, because they do not want to upset anyone in the queue or have to confront those too pig-headed to let them in near the merge.
( Although by the time such people have sat in a queue for a while, they too can become pig-headed!)
Then you have those who want to drive over the cones to gain a few feet who often annoy everyone. You know the types. You let three people merge, but they simply have to be the fourth no matter what..
It's rare to get a mixture of drivers who just understand and do all that is required.
Lorry drivers are often aware of this and the benefits of holding back and covering distance before the next stop in stop start traffic, or, keeping moving at a reasonable pace, are better for them tachograph and time wise.
It is only for their own benefit, of course (and those in front) because things do tend to keep moving when they do this. It's not right, I know, but I know why some do it.
mickmcpaddy said:
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, whether its fluids, electricity or gases, if they want to combine 2 moving objects then they make the outlet twice as big to keep the same flow or reduce the flow by half, this gives exactly the same scenario, nothing is gained or lost. If they just reduced the size by half then everything moves twice as slow.
This is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX0I8OdK7TkThis is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivme-_PE1d8
mickmcpaddy said:
Centurion07 said:
Still waiting for a source backing your point...
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, Still despite that, I think you are still missing the point. Its mainly about total road capacity, not the speed through the pinch point.
Its quite simple. 100 cars in one lane is a longer queue than 100 cars in 2 lanes, the longer queue can impact other junctions etc
Edited by blueg33 on Monday 27th November 09:18
SystemParanoia said:
mickmcpaddy said:
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, whether its fluids, electricity or gases, if they want to combine 2 moving objects then they make the outlet twice as big to keep the same flow or reduce the flow by half, this gives exactly the same scenario, nothing is gained or lost. If they just reduced the size by half then everything moves twice as slow.
This is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX0I8OdK7TkThis is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivme-_PE1d8
Centurion07 said:
You're right.
Except the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
I will concede that if you are saying its just going to be those cars in shot that will use that junction in any one day. However the reality is its not a fixed number of cars that use that or any other junction, they keep coming and coming, far in excess of what any length of road can hold so this negates any advantage of using two lanes.Except the number of cars in the pic is the number of cars in the pic. Adding hypothetical cars is irrelevant.
If that empty lane was being used by the cars visible in the second pic then the queue wouldn't be about to spill out onto the previous roundabout.
Surely you have to concede that?
blueg33 said:
Totally incorrect. My brother is a hydraulic engineer and credited with a couple of inventions during his doctorate. According to him with fluid creating a constriction increases the speed of flow. Coincidentally, he is also employed by Network Rail and the Highways agency to carry out flow modelling. The reason - Flowing traffic behaves a lot like a fluid in a pipe.
Still despite that, I think you are still missing the point. Its mainly about total road capacity, not the speed through the pinch point.
Its quite simple. 100 cars in one lane is a longer queue than 100 cars in 2 lanes, the longer queue can impact other junctions etc
Any proof of this? Cars behave like water and water behaves like electricity, I know about electricity and the only way to get increased flow is to either up the voltage (pressure) or use a bigger conductor or better conductor, its impossible to get more electrons down a cable by putting some sort of restriction in it.Still despite that, I think you are still missing the point. Its mainly about total road capacity, not the speed through the pinch point.
Its quite simple. 100 cars in one lane is a longer queue than 100 cars in 2 lanes, the longer queue can impact other junctions etc
Edited by blueg33 on Monday 27th November 09:18
And going back to average 50mph being better for flow, has anyone been on the M6 in the last 2 years?
SystemParanoia said:
mickmcpaddy said:
How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, whether its fluids, electricity or gases, if they want to combine 2 moving objects then they make the outlet twice as big to keep the same flow or reduce the flow by half, this gives exactly the same scenario, nothing is gained or lost. If they just reduced the size by half then everything moves twice as slow.
This is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX0I8OdK7TkThis is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivme-_PE1d8
In Aberdeen on the A90 we have road works, and a two lane carriageway goes into one, about a mile further down the road, traffic joines from the left, I leave a big gap between me and the next car so vehicles can merge in, but you can guarantee the car behind me is inches away, as are all the other cars, inches from each other, result, merging traffic comes to a stanstill.
Unless you can change the mentality of the drivers, we are doomed, and I dont see you changing many drivers attitudes.
We can debate this thread to doomsday, its a no win situation, some of us know how it should work, some of us know how it will work, but the majority will keep putting up arguements, as to why it doesnt.
mickmcpaddy said:
blueg33 said:
Totally incorrect. My brother is a hydraulic engineer and credited with a couple of inventions during his doctorate. According to him with fluid creating a constriction increases the speed of flow.
Any proof of this? Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff