Lorry drivers who think the are the Police

[Centurion07]

mickmcpaddy said:

Any proof of this? Cars behave like water and water behaves like electricity, I know about electricity and the only way to get increased flow is to either up the voltage (pressure) or use a bigger conductor or better conductor, its impossible to get more electrons down a cable by putting some sort of restriction in it.

Proof

Human beings in a traffic queue do not follow the laws of physics in the same way gas and liquid molecules do when faced with a restriction.

So now we've established you don't understand the argument you're trying to put forward in support of your view. We've also established that you will cite some random situation in order to try and prove that you're right, despite my pics demonstrating otherwise and every expert telling you different, that you STILL think you're right...

At some point, after getting a second, third and fourth opinion, when all those doctors tell you the same thing, you have to go with what they're saying, regardless whether you want to or not.

Oh, still waiting on some source to back your POV, other than "because I say so" and "well this totally random situation works this way and therefore is relevant to this argument".

[IJWS15]

Here is one you can play with.

http://www.traffic-simulation.de/onramp.html

Try varying the politeness - guess what we have in the UK.

And as someone who transits the M6/M5 junction most mornings there are "merge in turn" signs and I still see regular users (you see some vehicles every day) jumping into the RH lane as soon as they get into the queue.

[mko9]

It is not just the Highway Code, YouTube videos, and the theorizing of internet warriors. They have done actual scientific studies on this topic (below are a couple examples from a 30sec google search). Merge in turn/zipper merge works. Everyone else is a moron.

http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_report...

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/wz/workshops/accessible/M...

[Flibble]

mickmcpaddy said:

How about every aspect of engineering ever thought of, not once have the experts ever used a restriction when they want to get things moving, whether its fluids, electricity or gases, if they want to combine 2 moving objects then they make the outlet twice as big to keep the same flow or reduce the flow by half, this gives exactly the same scenario, nothing is gained or lost. If they just reduced the size by half then everything moves twice as slow.

This is exactly how rivers work, when there is a narrowing of the river the flow increases otherwise it floods. So the only way merge in turn can possibly work is the cars go through the merge twice as quick as they normally do. If they don't then they will overflow onto the surrounding roads anyway, unless you are suggesting there is only a certain amount of cars going to join the queue.

How do you propose halving the flow without causing a queue regardless of the merge regime? If you have X cars per minute arriving at the restriction but can only fit half of them through, the other half will stack up and form a queue. The speed they are travelling and whether they merge or not doesn't matter in the least. So if the road is above half capacity (typical on a busy motorway/DC), merging to a single lane will always cause a queue, no matter how people merge. You get the same effect with traffic lights on a single carriageway road, and there is no merging there to blame.

At this point this ideal situation is the shortest queue, which requires using all lanes fully, i.e. merge in turn. Anything else is just making the queue longer.

[Flibble]

mickmcpaddy said:

I've pointed out several simple mathematical reasons why it can't work, you have proved no reason why it does, only "an expert says so, so there"

So why don't you explain how a queue that has half as many cars joining it but moves twice as slow becomes any shorter than a queue with twice as many cars joining it but moving twice as quick.

The queue speed isn't twice as fast in either case. The speed through the restriction defines the queue length and is largely independent of what's happening behind the restriction; the flow through the restriction is the same no matter what the cars in the queue do. The only way to make the flow twice as fast is to have a road twice as wide (or in water terms, a hole twice as large).

Merge in turn is about managing queue length. In water terms (since you seem to like them); if you have a container with a hole in the base, then the wider the container then less full it will be. Merge in turn is a bucket with a hole. Merge early is a straw. The flow is the same, but you need a much longer straw to hold the same amount of water.

[llewop]

Flibble said:

Merge in turn is about managing queue length. In water terms (since you seem to like them); if you have a container with a hole in the base, then the wider the container then less full it will be. Merge in turn is a bucket with a hole. Merge early is a straw. The flow is the same, but you need a much longer straw to hold the same amount of water.

A good example! thanks

I think the flow rate is being misunderstood by some: it isn't actually the speed of the cars, its the number of vehicles per hour/minute/second past the entry point into the restriction that is the rate. Once you exceed the rate that can get through the hole/straw you get a queue - either long and thin or wider and shorter.

[Johnnytheboy]

llewop said:

A good example! thanks

I think the flow rate is being misunderstood by some: it isn't actually the speed of the cars, its the number of vehicles per hour/minute/second past the entry point into the restriction that is the rate. Once you exceed the rate that can get through the hole/straw you get a queue - either long and thin or wider and shorter.

Yes, but it's often in everyone's best interest to keep that queue short. If it builds up past a previous turn off for example, people with no need to queue will be affected.

[mickmcpaddy]

IJWS15 said:

Here is one you can play with.

http://www.traffic-simulation.de/onramp.html

Try varying the politeness - guess what we have in the UK.

And as someone who transits the M6/M5 junction most mornings there are "merge in turn" signs and I still see regular users (you see some vehicles every day) jumping into the RH lane as soon as they get into the queue.

I've had a play with this and if you use the roadworks one as its the closest one to simulating a closed lane, the cars all flow round the loop quite happily if the vehicles merge nice and early, you can even up the speed limit and the flow of traffic and its still fine, as soon as one of the cars tries to merge near the pinch point it all goes to pot.

[anonymous-user]

mickmcpaddy said:

IJWS15 said:

Here is one you can play with.

http://www.traffic-simulation.de/onramp.html

Try varying the politeness - guess what we have in the UK.

And as someone who transits the M6/M5 junction most mornings there are "merge in turn" signs and I still see regular users (you see some vehicles every day) jumping into the RH lane as soon as they get into the queue.

I've had a play with this and if you use the roadworks one as its the closest one to simulating a closed lane, the cars all flow round the loop quite happily if the vehicles merge nice and early, you can even up the speed limit and the flow of traffic and its still fine, as soon as one of the cars tries to merge near the pinch point it all goes to pot.

Turn the aggression down and watch it all flow like butter on a crumpet

[Red Devil]

Something else he has overlooked.
That simulation is from Germany where Die Polizei take a much dimmer view of tailgating than we do in the UK.
https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/traffic-violati...