147mph on motorway
Discussion
carinaman said:
I'm enjoying the pissing about.
Seems the standard of discussion has gone up a couple of gears.
Just need a few minor adjustments made to BV72 at the next service and it'd be running quite well I think.
I got told I was a tSeems the standard of discussion has gone up a couple of gears.
Just need a few minor adjustments made to BV72 at the next service and it'd be running quite well I think.
t by someone on this thread (can't remember who - don't care anyhoo).Actually, it may have been more than one person, but I digress..
I have reformed and repented for my sins.
I have turned over a new leaf.
For now.
But really, I am still a t
t.]
Edited by Red 4 on Wednesday 24th January 18:58
Red 4 said:
@ Toltec
Helicopter*
So if a car pulled out in front of pc foster at 70 while he’s doing 150mph he’d turn into a helicopter and avoid a collision that way? Helicopter*
- unless there's a slight breeze/ a bit of drizzle/ one is available/ it's grounded for maintenance
Edited by Red 4 on Monday 22 January 17:10
Douglas Quaid said:
So if a car pulled out in front of pc foster at 70 while he’s doing 150mph he’d turn into a helicopter and avoid a collision that way?
Yesh. Exactly that. Or a dragon (that trick is reserved for Heddlu). The paraffin parrot can mitigate risk - especially in pursuit situations.
But is rarer than a dragon these days.
It would've been quite useful if that S4 could've become a helicopter that then accidently crash landed on some moped riding motorcycle thieves in London.
But thieving detritus in the capital of 'Global Britain' are not endangering lives on the M3 past Old Basing are they? I suppose they both make for sensational footage for the press and Social Mediaverse.
But thieving detritus in the capital of 'Global Britain' are not endangering lives on the M3 past Old Basing are they? I suppose they both make for sensational footage for the press and Social Mediaverse.
These threads always fascinate me. Mainly because of the fact that time an time again, current and ex police officers comment that the police training is phenomenal and all their fast response drivers are better trained than absolutely anyone on the road. And that it's impossible for anyone else to be a better, more practised and more responsible driver.
It's correct that 99% of the public (and a huge percentage of PH users) are indeed not as qualified or experienced. There's absolutely no denying that unless you regularly drive a vehicle on or around the limit of adhesion, drive in varied traffic conditions and/or drive at speed regularly, you will lack the ability and perception of someone that does.
Incredibly though, the police are not alone, and there are indeed some 'normal' people around who have done the police training, regularly drive at speed, have regular assessments and are even, in some situations, better drivers. I know. Mind blowing.
Now. I think the sentiment from most officers is really that 'the majority' don't have the training and that it's more likely than not that they are not trained to drive at high speed, but I wish it was written like that rather than the usual 'Police are better drivers than everyone, and no one can ever possibly come close'.
I'm not going to suggest I am a better driver than a fast response driver. It's an impossible question to answer, and ultimately, the key fact is, I don't have the relevant certificate that would, in the eyes of the law, allow me to drive in the UK at high speed as a police officer. I would say though that, having done a version of the police training myself, taught by some police trainers, they think they know a lot more than they do! Absolutely everything is taken as fact from the training material, and unfortunately, the majority of that training material is based on vehicles from the 1950s. It's frankly quite out of date. It also, understandably, only provides a template to allow an average driver (which given that there is no actual requirement to be a talented 'helmsman' to coin a lovely SniffPetrol phrase) to drive at high speed with reasonable safety. It does not teach someone to drive by the seat of their pants/improve their reaction times or learn how to feel what a car is doing.
There are people out there that do more miles at high speed, in better prepared cars, with better training and ultimately, more natural driver ability than a police officer. The fact that so many current and ex coppers get so high and mighty about this fact is what get's everyone's backs up. Just admit that of course there are better people out there who are equally as capable as driving at high speed as them. It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they shouldn't be doing that on the road, but it does make you appear considerably less arrogant. Take a lesson from most decent sportsmen and realise that being humble about ones abilities can, more often than not, achieve more than being a show off...
And for the record....the Audi driver was an idiot for going so fast in the UK, but really.....it wasn't that dangerous.
It's correct that 99% of the public (and a huge percentage of PH users) are indeed not as qualified or experienced. There's absolutely no denying that unless you regularly drive a vehicle on or around the limit of adhesion, drive in varied traffic conditions and/or drive at speed regularly, you will lack the ability and perception of someone that does.
Incredibly though, the police are not alone, and there are indeed some 'normal' people around who have done the police training, regularly drive at speed, have regular assessments and are even, in some situations, better drivers. I know. Mind blowing.
Now. I think the sentiment from most officers is really that 'the majority' don't have the training and that it's more likely than not that they are not trained to drive at high speed, but I wish it was written like that rather than the usual 'Police are better drivers than everyone, and no one can ever possibly come close'.
I'm not going to suggest I am a better driver than a fast response driver. It's an impossible question to answer, and ultimately, the key fact is, I don't have the relevant certificate that would, in the eyes of the law, allow me to drive in the UK at high speed as a police officer. I would say though that, having done a version of the police training myself, taught by some police trainers, they think they know a lot more than they do! Absolutely everything is taken as fact from the training material, and unfortunately, the majority of that training material is based on vehicles from the 1950s. It's frankly quite out of date. It also, understandably, only provides a template to allow an average driver (which given that there is no actual requirement to be a talented 'helmsman' to coin a lovely SniffPetrol phrase) to drive at high speed with reasonable safety. It does not teach someone to drive by the seat of their pants/improve their reaction times or learn how to feel what a car is doing.
There are people out there that do more miles at high speed, in better prepared cars, with better training and ultimately, more natural driver ability than a police officer. The fact that so many current and ex coppers get so high and mighty about this fact is what get's everyone's backs up. Just admit that of course there are better people out there who are equally as capable as driving at high speed as them. It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they shouldn't be doing that on the road, but it does make you appear considerably less arrogant. Take a lesson from most decent sportsmen and realise that being humble about ones abilities can, more often than not, achieve more than being a show off...
And for the record....the Audi driver was an idiot for going so fast in the UK, but really.....it wasn't that dangerous.
RacerMike said:
These threads always fascinate me. Mainly because of the fact that time an time again, current and ex police officers comment that the police training is phenomenal and all their fast response drivers are better trained than absolutely anyone on the road. And that it's impossible for anyone else to be a better, more practised and more responsible driver.
It's correct that 99% of the public (and a huge percentage of PH users) are indeed not as qualified or experienced. There's absolutely no denying that unless you regularly drive a vehicle on or around the limit of adhesion, drive in varied traffic conditions and/or drive at speed regularly, you will lack the ability and perception of someone that does.
Incredibly though, the police are not alone, and there are indeed some 'normal' people around who have done the police training, regularly drive at speed, have regular assessments and are even, in some situations, better drivers. I know. Mind blowing.
Now. I think the sentiment from most officers is really that 'the majority' don't have the training and that it's more likely than not that they are not trained to drive at high speed, but I wish it was written like that rather than the usual 'Police are better drivers than everyone, and no one can ever possibly come close'.
I'm not going to suggest I am a better driver than a fast response driver. It's an impossible question to answer, and ultimately, the key fact is, I don't have the relevant certificate that would, in the eyes of the law, allow me to drive in the UK at high speed as a police officer. I would say though that, having done a version of the police training myself, taught by some police trainers, they think they know a lot more than they do! Absolutely everything is taken as fact from the training material, and unfortunately, the majority of that training material is based on vehicles from the 1950s. It's frankly quite out of date. It also, understandably, only provides a template to allow an average driver (which given that there is no actual requirement to be a talented 'helmsman' to coin a lovely SniffPetrol phrase) to drive at high speed with reasonable safety. It does not teach someone to drive by the seat of their pants/improve their reaction times or learn how to feel what a car is doing.
There are people out there that do more miles at high speed, in better prepared cars, with better training and ultimately, more natural driver ability than a police officer. The fact that so many current and ex coppers get so high and mighty about this fact is what get's everyone's backs up. Just admit that of course there are better people out there who are equally as capable as driving at high speed as them. It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they shouldn't be doing that on the road, but it does make you appear considerably less arrogant. Take a lesson from most decent sportsmen and realise that being humble about ones abilities can, more often than not, achieve more than being a show off...
And for the record....the Audi driver was an idiot for going so fast in the UK, but really.....it wasn't that dangerous.
I can't see anyone claiming the police are driving god's compared to the rest of the population of showing off about it?It's correct that 99% of the public (and a huge percentage of PH users) are indeed not as qualified or experienced. There's absolutely no denying that unless you regularly drive a vehicle on or around the limit of adhesion, drive in varied traffic conditions and/or drive at speed regularly, you will lack the ability and perception of someone that does.
Incredibly though, the police are not alone, and there are indeed some 'normal' people around who have done the police training, regularly drive at speed, have regular assessments and are even, in some situations, better drivers. I know. Mind blowing.
Now. I think the sentiment from most officers is really that 'the majority' don't have the training and that it's more likely than not that they are not trained to drive at high speed, but I wish it was written like that rather than the usual 'Police are better drivers than everyone, and no one can ever possibly come close'.
I'm not going to suggest I am a better driver than a fast response driver. It's an impossible question to answer, and ultimately, the key fact is, I don't have the relevant certificate that would, in the eyes of the law, allow me to drive in the UK at high speed as a police officer. I would say though that, having done a version of the police training myself, taught by some police trainers, they think they know a lot more than they do! Absolutely everything is taken as fact from the training material, and unfortunately, the majority of that training material is based on vehicles from the 1950s. It's frankly quite out of date. It also, understandably, only provides a template to allow an average driver (which given that there is no actual requirement to be a talented 'helmsman' to coin a lovely SniffPetrol phrase) to drive at high speed with reasonable safety. It does not teach someone to drive by the seat of their pants/improve their reaction times or learn how to feel what a car is doing.
There are people out there that do more miles at high speed, in better prepared cars, with better training and ultimately, more natural driver ability than a police officer. The fact that so many current and ex coppers get so high and mighty about this fact is what get's everyone's backs up. Just admit that of course there are better people out there who are equally as capable as driving at high speed as them. It doesn't take anything away from the fact that they shouldn't be doing that on the road, but it does make you appear considerably less arrogant. Take a lesson from most decent sportsmen and realise that being humble about ones abilities can, more often than not, achieve more than being a show off...
And for the record....the Audi driver was an idiot for going so fast in the UK, but really.....it wasn't that dangerous.
I've not read all the bickering but I think the point made was that driver training reduces but never removes risk.
Greendubber said:
I can't see anyone claiming the police are driving god's compared to the rest of the population?
Me neither.You will be a better driver if you've done the courses and continue to put into practice what you have learned/ been taught.
However - to put it into perspective - even a standard police driver will have had much, much more training than someone who has done an IAM course.
The training/ tuition is not comparable even if the theory is.
Driving police vehicles daily at high speed will keep you on the ball.
It doesn't mean you are a driving God.
Blues and twos do not provide an invisible protective shield.
Experience (and the level of training) counts for a lot.
But even then, no one is perfect.
Some police drivers are better than others.
Some like driving.
Some don't.
Edited by Red 4 on Thursday 25th January 14:12
Red 4 said:
Greendubber said:
I can't see anyone claiming the police are driving god's compared to the rest of the population?
Me neither.You will be a better driver if you've done the courses and continue to put into practice what you have learned/ been taught.
However - to put it into perspective - even a standard police driver will have had much, much more training than someone who has done an IAM course.
The training/ tuition is not comparable even if the theory is.
Driving police vehicles daily at high speed will keep you on the ball.
It doesn't mean you are a driving God.
Blues and twos do not provide an invisible protective shield.
Experience (and the level of training) counts for a lot.
But even then, no one is perfect.
Some police drivers are better than others.
Some like driving.
Some don't.
Red 4 said:
I see we have some more wannabe driving Gods on this thread.
Here's the thing;
The police officer has more training/ experience/ knowledge and know- how than you do.
(Awaits more BS from the heroes on here).
So you're implying there that if anyone dares to suggest they have more training/experience/knowledge than a police officer, it must be BS..... correct me if I'm wrong, but can't understand how you can read that any differently.Here's the thing;
The police officer has more training/ experience/ knowledge and know- how than you do.
(Awaits more BS from the heroes on here).
To put it into perspective, a professional vehicle dynamics test engineer will have had a lot more training than a police officer, and puts that into practice a lot more often than they do.
For example:
Training:
Basics of safe road driving - Check
Theoretical and practical police driver training (week long intensive course) - Check
Advanced sub limit vehicle assessment and handling training with basic oversteer and understeer control training - Check
Advanced over limit (i.e. drifting) driver training - Check
High speed (>150mph) training - Check
In market (i.e. in Sweden) Low friction driver training - Check
Nurburgring advanced driver training - Check
Experience:
8 weeks in Sweden driving on and over the limits of adhesion per year
2-4 weeks at Nurburgring per year
6-12 weeks at proving grounds in Spain doing high speed, on limit driving per year
4-6 weeks at proving grounds in France driving on limit on wet handling tracks per year
20,000-30,000 miles a year driving in Europe (outside driving for private SD&P) per year
5-10,000 miles a year driving at high speed on the German autobhan per year
I'd say that's a pretty comprehensive level of training and experience, and would lead to said person being at least as qualified as a traffic officer at both controlling a vehicle, and understanding how traffic behaves when driving at speed.
Edited by RacerMike on Thursday 25th January 14:56
Because you're talking about car control/ testing/ racetracks, etc. in the main.
The police training is about driving on the road.
It is largely about observation - not drifting around the Nurburgring.
The police officer is not just trained in driving. Hence my earlier post.
P.S. I'm not trying to sound superior.
I have no need to.
I haven't listed my qualifications or experience - I'll leave that type of thing to you.
The police training is about driving on the road.
It is largely about observation - not drifting around the Nurburgring.
The police officer is not just trained in driving. Hence my earlier post.
P.S. I'm not trying to sound superior.
I have no need to.
I haven't listed my qualifications or experience - I'll leave that type of thing to you.
Edited by Red 4 on Thursday 25th January 15:10
Red 4 said:
Because you're talking about car control/ testing/ racetracks, etc. in the main.
The police training is about driving on the road.
It is largely about observation - not drifting around the Nurburgring.
The police officer is not just trained in driving. Hence my earlier post.
You chose to ignore the bit about 20,000-30,000 miles on European roads (plus 10,000 - 20,000 SD&P for the average UK mileage) and 5,000-10,000 miles on the Autobahn at high speed. I wasn't aware that the UK police did greater than 10,000 miles at 120mph plus a year.....The police training is about driving on the road.
It is largely about observation - not drifting around the Nurburgring.
The police officer is not just trained in driving. Hence my earlier post.
Again, you're somewhat proving my point that you're not prepared to jut accept that it is possible for someone to be as good at judging risk and handling a vehicle than a police officer. Police driver training is great, and a good number of the fast response guys are good drivers, but they're not above absolutely everyone. There are strengths and weeknesses with all drivers, and everyone is good in some areas but less so in others. The reality is that driving at high speed on the road isn't actually that hard. If you've got reasonable experience with reading traffic, have an ability to think ahead, are used to driving at that speed and have a well prepared car, there's no reason that 150mph is dangerous....
Red 4 said:
P.S. I'm not trying to sound superior.
I have no need to.
I haven't listed my qualifications or experience - I'll leave that type of thing to you.
You're not trying to, but you are. And I didn't say they were my qualifications.....and there's no need to try and get personal again. Trying to do so just undermines your discussion!I have no need to.
I haven't listed my qualifications or experience - I'll leave that type of thing to you.
Edited by RacerMike on Thursday 25th January 15:24
RacerMike said:
You're not trying to, but you are. And I didn't say they were my qualifications.....and there's no need to try and get personal again. Trying to do so just undermines your discussion!
Well, I don't know anyone who knows what someone else's qualifications are including how long individual training courses last/ mileage covered per year, etc. etc.Edited by RacerMike on Thursday 25th January 15:24
You are a 'Development Engineer" according to your profile so I think it's pretty fair to assume you are talking about yourself.
I think you may be forgetting that police use exemptions for necessity - not to prove how good they are behind the wheel.
If it's not justified - be prepared to face prosecution.
Like I said - there are standards.
If you meet those standards you get a permit/ certificate.
It doesn't mean you are better than The Stig.
But you can use the exemptions, so your point is largely a moot one.
RacerMike said:
You chose to ignore the bit about 20,000-30,000 miles on European roads (plus 10,000 - 20,000 SD&P for the average UK mileage) and 5,000-10,000 miles on the Autobahn at high speed. I wasn't aware that the UK police did greater than 10,000 miles at 120mph plus a year.....
What's driving on an Autobahn at high speed got to do with driving conditions in the UK?ElectricPics said:
RacerMike said:
You chose to ignore the bit about 20,000-30,000 miles on European roads (plus 10,000 - 20,000 SD&P for the average UK mileage) and 5,000-10,000 miles on the Autobahn at high speed. I wasn't aware that the UK police did greater than 10,000 miles at 120mph plus a year.....
What's driving on an Autobahn at high speed got to do with driving conditions in the UK?Just smacks of willy waving, which I'm sure he was accusing others of doing earlier on...
Red 4 said:
Well, I don't know anyone who knows what someone else's qualifications are including how long individual training courses last/ mileage covered per year, etc. etc.
You are a 'Development Engineer" according to your profile so I think it's pretty fair to assume you are talking about yourself.
Believe it or not, there are many people that work in a Vehicle Dynamics department and they all talk to each other/know what training people have! I have some of the qualifications, but no so much the Autobhan stuff. I do drive on them, but only usually to get somewhere as my particular job doesn't involve the high speed stability work which some of the core vehicle dynamics people do.You are a 'Development Engineer" according to your profile so I think it's pretty fair to assume you are talking about yourself.
Red 4 said:
I think you may be forgetting that police use exemptions for necessity - not to prove how good they are behind the wheel.
If it's not justified - be prepared to face prosecution.
Like I said - there are standards.
If you meet those standards you get a permit/ certificate.
It doesn't mean you are better than The Stig.
But you can use the exemptions, so your point is largely a moot one
And part of driving fast safely is only doing so when it's safe to do so. So much like the police exemptions, you should use an appropriate speed at the appropriate time. A blind, foggy off camber two lane motorway is not the place to be setting a new lap record for example. You're assumption that people cannot make this decision is a bit like people who claim you can't have morals if your not religious. Morals are a product of knowing right from wrong, and use of appropriate speed on the road, is the same. Just because you've got a certificate doesn't mean you can go flat out regardless.If it's not justified - be prepared to face prosecution.
Like I said - there are standards.
If you meet those standards you get a permit/ certificate.
It doesn't mean you are better than The Stig.
But you can use the exemptions, so your point is largely a moot one
Anyway. You're clearly not getting it as you're actively demonstrating exactly what my point was in pretty much every reply.
Accept that:
-There are plenty of very good, very experienced and highly able member of the public who drive on the roads
-Police drivers are not, by default, the best drivers known to man
-Attempts at personal insults in a discussion undermine the very foundation of your argument.
RacerMike said:
Anyway. You're clearly not getting it as you're actively demonstrating exactly what my point was in pretty much every reply.
Accept that:
-There are plenty of very good, very experienced and highly able member of the public who drive on the roads
-Police drivers are not, by default, the best drivers known to man
-Attempts at personal insults in a discussion undermine the very foundation of your argument.
I've tried to explain and give my opinion.Accept that:
-There are plenty of very good, very experienced and highly able member of the public who drive on the roads
-Police drivers are not, by default, the best drivers known to man
-Attempts at personal insults in a discussion undermine the very foundation of your argument.
If you choose to ignore that - that's up to you.
There are plenty of good drivers on the roads.
There are also plenty of bad ones.
Your training/ experience doesn't mean you should be able to drive faster than everyone else.
You have to factor in the lowest denominator - the worst drivers.
I've never said police drivers are the best by default.
But they are trained to a standard higher than others.
Being a police officer doesn't mean you can do whatever you want wherever you want.
There are exemptions in law but that does not mean that a police officer will not face a prosecution for any number of driving offences.
You need to justify your actions.
I haven't insulted you.
I gave you answers/ opinions you don't like.
Red 4 said:
I've tried to explain and give my opinion.
If you choose to ignore that - that's up to you.
There are plenty of good drivers on the roads.
There are also plenty of bad ones.
Your training/ experience doesn't mean you should be able to drive faster than everyone else.
You have to factor in the lowest denominator - the worst drivers.
I've never said police drivers are the best by default.
But they are trained to a standard higher than others.
Being a police officer doesn't mean you can do whatever you want wherever you want.
There are exemptions in law but that does not mean that a police officer will not face a prosecution for any number of driving offences.
You need to justify your actions.
I haven't insulted you.
I gave you answers/ opinions you don't like.
You have back pedalled quite a bit from your initial ‘anyone who says otherwise is BS’ opinion to be fair. Which is laudible, but you’ve not exactly held your hands up and admitted you were maybe being a little ‘holier than tho’ with that statement.If you choose to ignore that - that's up to you.
There are plenty of good drivers on the roads.
There are also plenty of bad ones.
Your training/ experience doesn't mean you should be able to drive faster than everyone else.
You have to factor in the lowest denominator - the worst drivers.
I've never said police drivers are the best by default.
But they are trained to a standard higher than others.
Being a police officer doesn't mean you can do whatever you want wherever you want.
There are exemptions in law but that does not mean that a police officer will not face a prosecution for any number of driving offences.
You need to justify your actions.
I haven't insulted you.
I gave you answers/ opinions you don't like.
And to flip it on it’s head, I never once said that training means you can go as fast as you want. I’ve not once meant to imply that, and if it seems I have then apologies as that wasn’t my point. My original statement still stands that the training a police officer gets doesn’t instantly make them more qualified, which is what is often implied....and not just by you I hasten to add. It’s a very British thing.
The French police basically don’t care what you think. They’re the law, you broke it, you pay your money and you get your punishment. No one tries to make a point or teach anyone a lesson as they know that you know you broke the law and have to suffer the punishment. All in all it’s not a particularly entertaining experience, but ultimately it’s a fairly matter of fact conversation. One that thankfully I haven’t had to deal with....but I’d prefer this to the smart arsery you see on Police Camera action and the comments like the ones in this article.
And as for personal insults. You tried by attempting to imply I was showing off.... similar to when you made some comment about someone earlier in this thread and their job. And the comments about others practicing on their XBox. Hardly the comments of a humble police officer is it?
Anyway. Point made, and I think you’ve back down a little from your initial hubris so fair play.
RacerMike said:
-There are plenty of very good, very experienced and highly able member of the public who drive on the roads
-Police drivers are not, by default, the best drivers known to man
-Attempts at personal insults in a discussion undermine the very foundation of your argument.
That's essentially the discussion I had with Devon & Cornwall 's 'Social Media Champion' as he was described back in this thread. The "Driving God" attitude appears very common amongst Police Officers who are blissfully unaware of just how hubristic they sound-Police drivers are not, by default, the best drivers known to man
-Attempts at personal insults in a discussion undermine the very foundation of your argument.
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