M25 and M1 Cameras

[jm doc]

Swole said:

jm doc said:

If they use radar then it is possible to know if they are on.

The radars are always on, as the power is always connected. It depends whether or not the police activate them in the back office, or rather click the button that arms/sets to enforce. The system is generally always detecting and capturing speed in a log file, but just not taking photos, unless the power is off or in maintenance.

I used to love sitting roadside with these things when the flash was being tested, and watching the reaction of the traffic, oblivious to the standard of their driving, or life itself until the sky lit up in two sharp bursts.

ghe13rte said:

There are quite a few technical error in the description you provide and in the one at the link. It is the closest anyone has been though.
5/10 well done.

I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean. Please say how they work if you know better :-/.

Edited by Swole on Thursday 22 February 21:48

What's the speed they are travelling at got to do with this?
Just goes to show the level of insight of the goons employed in the speedscam industry.

[Swole]

jm doc said:

What's the speed they are travelling at got to do with this?
Just goes to show the level of insight of the goons employed in the speedscam industry.

What are you on about, numbskull? Flash testing is conducted over NSL or displayed AMI limit, so if you’re speeding, which you shouldn’t be, the system will trigure under flash testing at the set threshold. You won’t get a ticket (lucky for you) but the standard of your driving is poor enough to break the limit knowing the circumstances, or you’re purposefully ignorant of it.

You’re another idiot who drives passed these cameras and thinks that you know how they’re stuck together. Please, please, give us a detailed spec of their make-up, installation and a manual, oh Mighty Oracle.

I tell you what, take the advice or don’t and just fly through them at 90mph. Some will get you, some will not. Matters none to anyone else.

I won’t read your reply so don’t bother. Good luck with your quest to 12 points.

Edited by Swole on Friday 23 February 08:47

[MarcelM6]

oooh - handbags at dawn

[jm doc]

Swole said:

jm doc said:

What's the speed they are travelling at got to do with this?
Just goes to show the level of insight of the goons employed in the speedscam industry.

What are you on about, numbskull? Flash testing is conducted over NSL or displayed AMI limit, so if you’re speeding, which you shouldn’t be, the system will trigure under flash testing at the set threshold. You won’t get a ticket (lucky for you) but the standard of your driving is poor enough to break the limit knowing the circumstances, or you’re purposefully ignorant of it.

You’re another idiot who drives passed these cameras and thinks that you know how they’re stuck together. Please, please, give us a detailed spec of their make-up, installation and a manual, oh Mighty Oracle.

I tell you what, take the advice or don’t and just fly through them at 90mph. Some will get you, some will not. Matters none to anyone else.

I won’t read your reply so don’t bother. Good luck with your quest to 12 points.

Edited by Swole on Friday 23 February 08:47

Numbskull indeed. Read the post. I said what has speed got to do with standard of driving. Obeying a number on a stick that some moron like yourself has plucked out of the air has absolutely nothing to do with driving standards.

And you really have just confirmed the remark I made about the level of insight you have about driving.

Finally, you didn't comprehend my previous comments so it doesn't really matter whether you read this or not does it?

[ashleyman]

Landshark said:

ashleyman said:

Landshark said:

Email them call them and pester them, this shouldn’t happen and they (HE) should get it fixed!! Their logs should show what it’s displaying!!

Have emailed HE to ask. Will let you know what they come back with.

Thanks, I do moan at them as well, as if it’s wrong and left like that it erodes the usefulness of them and creates confusion.

Just thought I'd let you know that I sent off the enquiry online to Highways England on 15/02/2018. I had a reply asking for more information on 23/02/2018 to which I replied within half hour. The same person then replied to say he wasn't responsible for that section of road and would forward it to a colleague. So far, I have not had a response. I have phoned today to chase and they've agreed it's well beyond their time frame to respond so have escalated my enquiry and tagged it 'Urgent'. They said I should get a reply within a few days.

The reply I had from the incorrect member of staff was this:

"Many thanks for responding with additional information, the still and dashcam link on youtube. Having viewed the footage, I am pleased to say that this has occurred in our South East Region, and not on my area of the M25. I will pass your comments and the additional information on to them to respond to you direct. As I don’t have access to the site data for that area, I am unable to respond. Your footage does clearly shows Mandatory 40 MPH over lanes 1 and 4, with lane 3 showing mandatory 50 mph. The absence of anything over lane 2 would appeared to be a failure of the Advanced Motorway Indicator (the device which displays the required setting). However I will let them confirm that with you.

Many thanks for bringing this matter to our attention – Highways England takes great store in the accuracy and timeliness of signs and signals we display, in fact they are two of our key performance indicators by which we are measured. "

[Brave Fart]

OK, so "Highways England takes great store in the accuracy and timeliness of signs and signals we display...."
Driving up the M1 two weeks ago, there were signs saying "debris in road" - never saw any. Then, later there was "pedestrians on road"....nope. Next we had "motorway closed at Junction 24" - it was open. Oh yes, and on the M27 three days ago "salt spreading" - the cold weather disappeared last weekend you fools!
And of course you can always see the ever-helpful "don't drink and drive" or "a dog is for life" or whatever public information they fancy displaying this week, on the multi-billion pound gantries.
Is it any wonder many motorists simply ignore all their signs and signals?

[Landshark]

ashleyman said:

Landshark said:

ashleyman said:

Landshark said:

Email them call them and pester them, this shouldn’t happen and they (HE) should get it fixed!! Their logs should show what it’s displaying!!

Have emailed HE to ask. Will let you know what they come back with.

Thanks, I do moan at them as well, as if it’s wrong and left like that it erodes the usefulness of them and creates confusion.

Just thought I'd let you know that I sent off the enquiry online to Highways England on 15/02/2018. I had a reply asking for more information on 23/02/2018 to which I replied within half hour. The same person then replied to say he wasn't responsible for that section of road and would forward it to a colleague. So far, I have not had a response. I have phoned today to chase and they've agreed it's well beyond their time frame to respond so have escalated my enquiry and tagged it 'Urgent'. They said I should get a reply within a few days.

The reply I had from the incorrect member of staff was this:

"Many thanks for responding with additional information, the still and dashcam link on youtube. Having viewed the footage, I am pleased to say that this has occurred in our South East Region, and not on my area of the M25. I will pass your comments and the additional information on to them to respond to you direct. As I don’t have access to the site data for that area, I am unable to respond. Your footage does clearly shows Mandatory 40 MPH over lanes 1 and 4, with lane 3 showing mandatory 50 mph. The absence of anything over lane 2 would appeared to be a failure of the Advanced Motorway Indicator (the device which displays the required setting). However I will let them confirm that with you.

Many thanks for bringing this matter to our attention – Highways England takes great store in the accuracy and timeliness of signs and signals we display, in fact they are two of our key performance indicators by which we are measured. "

There was another issue yesterday at J13 that I flagged with them regarding limits which they admitted was wrong and would look into!

[ashleyman]

So this morning I finally had a reply:

email said:

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for the information provided regarding the different speeds that are showing over each lane of the M25, I have passed your query over to our technology department and once I have a response from them I will be in contact again

If you require any further information please contact us or visit the Highways England website at www.highways.gov.uk. For information on Highways England’s complaints process please see here.

Kind regards
Beverley Spellman,
Highways England National Consistency Manager,
Service Delivery SE

A few hours later I just received:

email said:

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for contacting the Highways England Customer Contact Centre regarding the signage displayed on your journey M25 motorway that was showing different speeds or no speed over each lane.

I have managed to speak to one of our engineers about these signals and they are aware of them and are at the moment in contact with the suppliers due to the fault on them.

The fault it has means when the signals are changed either by Midas or manually by the control room it takes longer for the sign in lane 3 to change than the others, plus as you are aware the signal in lane 2 is blank so this will also be repaired at the same time.

At the moment I don’t have a time scale with regards to the repairs but I can assure you our technology team are ensuring this is done as soon as possible.
If you require any further information please contact us or visit the Highways England website at www.highways.gov.uk. For information on Highways England’s complaints process please see here.
Kind regards,

I have replied:

me said:

Hi Beverley,

Thank you for the reply.

Could you please confirm what the actual speed limit would be on that stretch of road at the time the signs show inconsistent speed?
Would I be correct in saying that you should travel at the speeds shown per the lane you are travelling in and if one lane is blank then the NSL would apply?
Can you confirm what would happen if one was to drive through L2 at NSL whilst L1 shows 50 and a speed camera was to be present at the location with the fault?

Regards,

Edited by ashleyman on Tuesday 20th March 16:15

[BertBert]

Presumably they (being Highways England) won't be able to answer this as it's not a matter for them?

ashleyman said:

Hi Beverley,

Thank you for the reply.

Could you please confirm what the actual speed limit would be on that stretch of road at the time the signs show inconsistent speed?
Would I be correct in saying that you should travel at the speeds shown per the lane you are travelling in and if one lane is blank then the NSL would apply?
Can you confirm what would happen if one was to drive through L2 at NSL whilst L1 shows 50 and a speed camera was to be present at the location with the fault?

Regards,

[ashleyman]

BertBert said:

Presumably they (being Highways England) won't be able to answer this as it's not a matter for them?

ashleyman said:

Hi Beverley,

Thank you for the reply.

Could you please confirm what the actual speed limit would be on that stretch of road at the time the signs show inconsistent speed?
Would I be correct in saying that you should travel at the speeds shown per the lane you are travelling in and if one lane is blank then the NSL would apply?
Can you confirm what would happen if one was to drive through L2 at NSL whilst L1 shows 50 and a speed camera was to be present at the location with the fault?

Regards,

‘They’ need to find out IMO

[BertBert]

Why is that? They are not upholding the law, just working to a set of operating procedures that someone else has worked out allow them (the someone else) to uphold the law.

Bert

ashleyman said:

‘They’ need to find out IMO

[ashleyman]

BertBert said:

Why is that? They are not upholding the law, just working to a set of operating procedures that someone else has worked out allow them (the someone else) to uphold the law.

Bert

ashleyman said:

‘They’ need to find out IMO

They set the speed limits or at least monitor the computers that do it.

They say they keep accurate records of what speeds are displayed. Therefor I want to know what the correct speed was when I passed under the signs.

They should be able to find out on my behalf what would happen if a NIP was issued for incorrect signage. I can imagine it would be cancelled but I want them to answer it.

I’m not even doing this to be petty or start an argument with them. I genuinely want to know what would happen if this had occurred on a gantry with a camera attached. I’m sure you can understand that if the sign said 50 and I went through at 50 but got a NIP because the sign next door said 40 and 40 was the ‘real’ speed I’d want to know what would happen. Hypothetical, yes. But as the technology gets older and the infrastructure ages I’m sure failures like this will be more prevalent.

[ghe13rte]

ashleyman said:

BertBert said:

Why is that? They are not upholding the law, just working to a set of operating procedures that someone else has worked out allow them (the someone else) to uphold the law.

Bert

ashleyman said:

‘They’ need to find out IMO

They set the speed limits or at least monitor the computers that do it.

They say they keep accurate records of what speeds are displayed. Therefor I want to know what the correct speed was when I passed under the signs.

They should be able to find out on my behalf what would happen if a NIP was issued for incorrect signage. I can imagine it would be cancelled but I want them to answer it.

I’m not even doing this to be petty or start an argument with them. I genuinely want to know what would happen if this had occurred on a gantry with a camera attached. I’m sure you can understand that if the sign said 50 and I went through at 50 but got a NIP because the sign next door said 40 and 40 was the ‘real’ speed I’d want to know what would happen. Hypothetical, yes. But as the technology gets older and the infrastructure ages I’m sure failures like this will be more prevalent.

I can tell you that now.
With HADECS3 it will enforce at NSL.

HADECS2 would not have enforced at all with the signs like that.

There you go. Mystery solved.

[ashleyman]

ghe13rte said:

ashleyman said:

BertBert said:

Why is that? They are not upholding the law, just working to a set of operating procedures that someone else has worked out allow them (the someone else) to uphold the law.

Bert

ashleyman said:

‘They’ need to find out IMO

They set the speed limits or at least monitor the computers that do it.

They say they keep accurate records of what speeds are displayed. Therefor I want to know what the correct speed was when I passed under the signs.

They should be able to find out on my behalf what would happen if a NIP was issued for incorrect signage. I can imagine it would be cancelled but I want them to answer it.

I’m not even doing this to be petty or start an argument with them. I genuinely want to know what would happen if this had occurred on a gantry with a camera attached. I’m sure you can understand that if the sign said 50 and I went through at 50 but got a NIP because the sign next door said 40 and 40 was the ‘real’ speed I’d want to know what would happen. Hypothetical, yes. But as the technology gets older and the infrastructure ages I’m sure failures like this will be more prevalent.

I can tell you that now.
With HADECS3 it will enforce at NSL.

HADECS2 would not have enforced at all with the signs like that.

There you go. Mystery solved.

Thanks but you've not answered my question and I'd rather have an answer in writing from highways.

[cmaguire]

Don't you trust him?

I wouldn't take his word for it either.

[BertBert]

Forgive me for what looks like pedantry, but I see things slightly differently..

The cameras do not 'enforce'. They have no knowledge of the law, they operate as they have been set to do. So if someone has set them to operate at 79 when it's NSL on the motorway, that's just what they do.

I also contend that Highways England do not enforce, they do whatever operating they need to do governed by operating procedure.

Then there is the organisation that receives 'data' from the operation of the cameras and decides to start the 'NIP' process which I do not think is Highways England.

So if you asked HE what the cameras will do in certain circs, they can tell you. I doubt that they can tell you whether you will receive a NIP for any specific circumstance and certainly not tell you whether that NIP is lawful.

Looking forward to their response and being proven wrong though!
Bert

[ghe13rte]

ashleyman said:

ghe13rte said:

ashleyman said:

BertBert said:

Why is that? They are not upholding the law, just working to a set of operating procedures that someone else has worked out allow them (the someone else) to uphold the law.

Bert

ashleyman said:

‘They’ need to find out IMO

They set the speed limits or at least monitor the computers that do it.

They say they keep accurate records of what speeds are displayed. Therefor I want to know what the correct speed was when I passed under the signs.

They should be able to find out on my behalf what would happen if a NIP was issued for incorrect signage. I can imagine it would be cancelled but I want them to answer it.

I’m not even doing this to be petty or start an argument with them. I genuinely want to know what would happen if this had occurred on a gantry with a camera attached. I’m sure you can understand that if the sign said 50 and I went through at 50 but got a NIP because the sign next door said 40 and 40 was the ‘real’ speed I’d want to know what would happen. Hypothetical, yes. But as the technology gets older and the infrastructure ages I’m sure failures like this will be more prevalent.

I can tell you that now.
With HADECS3 it will enforce at NSL.

HADECS2 would not have enforced at all with the signs like that.

There you go. Mystery solved.

Thanks but you've not answered my question and I'd rather have an answer in writing from highways.

What question? Highways don’t administer any enforcement and are not likely to know anything about the Camera technology and certainly will know nothing of NIP administration.
Good luck though.

[ashleyman]

1. I want to know what the correct speed was at the time of my journey.
2. I want to know what I should do in the event that this happens again, stick to the speed on the sign as per my lane or drive at the lowest speed shown.
3. I want to know what would happen if there was a camera attached would I be served a ticket for driving at the speed as per my lane if it was higher than the speed in a different lane. See point 2 about what speed do I drive at.

Highways England said:

HE said:

Highways England takes great store in the accuracy and timeliness of signs and signals we display, in fact they are two of our key performance indicators by which we are measured.

So they should have the data to answer my question and tell me what the sign was supposed to say.

People I spoke to at Highways England so far don't know what you should do if the signs are as I have shown, what speed you should do.

One lady said as the motorway sign that was broken was in Surrey Police territory I should phone them and ask what speed I should do. So I did what I was told and called Surrey Police and the woman I spoke to got the hump saying if I thought I had been caught speeding I should wait for the ticket to come and then speak to the officer on the ticket and not her. Trying to explain that I hadn't been caught speeding but I wanted to know what speed I should do on a smart motorway if the speeds shown on the signs above each lane were not consistent. She said she didn't know and that it would be for someone else to answer my question. She didn't know whom though.

If Highways England can't answer the question and Surrey Police can't answer the question then who can? Highways England manage the road, they have obviously worked with the people who do enforce the speeds and install the equipment and they are the ones who want errors like this reported to them. Landshark (who I assume is a Policeman) has told me to report this and to pester them so thats what I'm doing.

[ghe13rte]

ashleyman said:

1. I want to know what the correct speed was at the time of my journey.
2. I want to know what I should do in the event that this happens again, stick to the speed on the sign as per my lane or drive at the lowest speed shown.
3. I want to know what would happen if there was a camera attached would I be served a ticket for driving at the speed as per my lane if it was higher than the speed in a different lane. See point 2 about what speed do I drive at.

Highways England said:

HE said:

Highways England takes great store in the accuracy and timeliness of signs and signals we display, in fact they are two of our key performance indicators by which we are measured.

So they should have the data to answer my question and tell me what the sign was supposed to say.

People I spoke to at Highways England so far don't know what you should do if the signs are as I have shown, what speed you should do.

One lady said as the motorway sign that was broken was in Surrey Police territory I should phone them and ask what speed I should do. So I did what I was told and called Surrey Police and the woman I spoke to got the hump saying if I thought I had been caught speeding I should wait for the ticket to come and then speak to the officer on the ticket and not her. Trying to explain that I hadn't been caught speeding but I wanted to know what speed I should do on a smart motorway if the speeds shown on the signs above each lane were not consistent. She said she didn't know and that it would be for someone else to answer my question. She didn't know whom though.

If Highways England can't answer the question and Surrey Police can't answer the question then who can? Highways England manage the road, they have obviously worked with the people who do enforce the speeds and install the equipment and they are the ones who want errors like this reported to them. Landshark (who I assume is a Policeman) has told me to report this and to pester them so thats what I'm doing.

1. There is no correct speed in that situation although it appears that from what HE have explained is that the limit was commanded to 40mph. With the signs set as displayed then the only limit that was able to be enforced is the NSL 70 so it is that limit which is valid and none other. If what you mean by "correct speed limit" is what was it commanded to then it appears to have been 40mph. What is commanded is not an influence on what is enforced unless that limit is shown on the signs when commanded.
2. It doesn't make any difference which speed you choose below 70mph as the only one that remains in force in that sign configuration is NSL70.
3. I have already told you the answer. The HADECS3 camera will enforce the 70mph speed limit with the signs in that configuration. The evidence will have an image of the signs at the time in image 3 of the 3-image set, that is the External Aspect Camera image that shows the status of the signs on the gantry.
You're welcome.

[ashleyman]

ghe13rte said:

1. There is no correct speed in that situation although it appears that from what HE have explained is that the limit was commanded to 40mph. With the signs set as displayed then the only limit that was able to be enforced is the NSL 70 so it is that limit which is valid and none other. If what you mean by "correct speed limit" is what was it commanded to then it appears to have been 40mph. What is commanded is not an influence on what is enforced unless that limit is shown on the signs when commanded.

In English?