Eight months for using a laser jammer ?!! Wtf
Discussion
bad company said:
ghe13rte said:
In the incidents that led to the PCoJ the normal course would be:
1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
Yes, that’s a good account of what seems to have happened. I still say that taxpayers money is being wasted sending him to jail though. I would say community service and a sizeable fine would have been better and saved much needed prison space for violent and more serious criminals.1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
There has to be a balance between the level of the penalty and the fear/likelihood of detection. The crime of PCOJ is very serious and a deterrent is needed that suits. If you get a slapped wrist for using a laser jammer I think I would fit one to my vehicles, if alternatively you get an 8-month stay in the big house working out when the showers are not likely to be busy and a complete loss of integrity that comes from a prison sentence I think I will stick to reading the road an behaving myself.
As far a taxpayers money is concerned, I think a reasonable idea is to get those incarcerated to pay with NI contributions that releive them of their pension contributions and if receiving a pension their board and lodgings are taken from that. Then play them Midnight Express on repeat 24/7 to show how lucky they are.
AW111 said:
cmaguire said:
They won't.
Just ignore them whenever possible, that's your only option bar succumbing to their demands.
You could always be a little less self-important, lose the martyr complex, and drive a bit slower... Just ignore them whenever possible, that's your only option bar succumbing to their demands.
Besides which, why are we now being told we have to do 40 or 50mph on roads that were previously 60mph when absolutely nothing bar inadequate maintenance has changed on those roads? I doubt their inadequate maintenance will be cited in any event.
There is no sense to this nonsense so why should it be taken seriously?
ghe13rte said:
bad company said:
ghe13rte said:
In the incidents that led to the PCoJ the normal course would be:
1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
Yes, that’s a good account of what seems to have happened. I still say that taxpayers money is being wasted sending him to jail though. I would say community service and a sizeable fine would have been better and saved much needed prison space for violent and more serious criminals.1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
There has to be a balance between the level of the penalty and the fear/likelihood of detection. The crime of PCOJ is very serious and a deterrent is needed that suits. If you get a slapped wrist for using a laser jammer I think I would fit one to my vehicles, if alternatively you get an 8-month stay in the big house working out when the showers are not likely to be busy and a complete loss of integrity that comes from a prison sentence I think I will stick to reading the road an behaving myself.
As far a taxpayers money is concerned, I think a reasonable idea is to get those incarcerated to pay with NI contributions that releive them of their pension contributions and if receiving a pension their board and lodgings are taken from that. Then play them Midnight Express on repeat 24/7 to show how lucky they are.
As I said previously our prisons are overcrowded and very expensive to run. I wouldn’t call 3-400 hours community service and a fine of several thousand £’s a slap on the wrist. Some would say that a short jail term is a softer option.
ghe13rte said:
Roman Rhodes said:
ghe13rte said:
In the incidents that led to the PCoJ the normal course would be:
1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
Succinctly put but I fear some still won’t get it!1. Operator sees vehicle and wishes to measure speed
2. Speed measured
3. Speed higher than that allowed save evidence then prosecute, or
4. Speed lower than that allowed do nothing.
However in this case 3 or 4 could not be achieved. 3 and 4 being the normal course of justice but not being possible resulted in a different investigation and course of justice.
If a normal course of actions is diverted to another abnormal course then “perverted” is a term that the law use for that.
The actions of Mr Hill alone caused the police to divert or have their normal administration of justice in the measurement of the speed of Hill’s vehicle changed hence the Course of Justice was Perverted by Hill.
Hope that is simple enough for the simple.
What I can believe is that those who appear not to understand simply don’t want to accept the fact and prefer to only believe what they would like the facts to be. I understand that is termed “delusional”.
vonhosen said:
Schmed said:
Ok, I’ll bite. So an inability to get from 2 to 3 in your “simple” example above is perverting the course of justice, in all cases ? In the same way so many here are outraged over this it follows they must also be delusional?
Outrage stifles clear thinking.cmaguire said:
vonhosen said:
Schmed said:
Ok, I’ll bite. So an inability to get from 2 to 3 in your “simple” example above is perverting the course of justice, in all cases ? In the same way so many here are outraged over this it follows they must also be delusional?
Outrage stifles clear thinking.Roman Rhodes said:
See bold above. You’re being obtuse trying to argue that speeding can’t have victims. Do you really believe that speeding without accident = victimless and speeding with accident (and victim) = always “driver error”? What “error” did the driver commit when he was doing 40 in a 30 and a child ran out in front of him? The child dies but would have survived if they’d been hit at 30.
It is patently obvious that there are no ‘victims’ of the vast majority of speeding (ignoring pollution arguments) but to try and stretch that to saying there are NEVER victims of speeding by recategorising it as driver error (e.g. some idiot saying I reckon I could have got round that bend at 69mph even though the road limit is 50mph so therefore the person who didn’t and died is a victim of driver error, not speeding) is laughable.
Sorry but are you seriously asking what error a driver committed by doing 40 in a 30? I'd have thought it was obvious to a blind man but since you clearly need help understanding being 33% over the speed limit in a built-up area where it's highly likely children will be around is driver error (and illegal).It is patently obvious that there are no ‘victims’ of the vast majority of speeding (ignoring pollution arguments) but to try and stretch that to saying there are NEVER victims of speeding by recategorising it as driver error (e.g. some idiot saying I reckon I could have got round that bend at 69mph even though the road limit is 50mph so therefore the person who didn’t and died is a victim of driver error, not speeding) is laughable.
As for all this driving god "I could have got round that bend going faster" stuff, I've never mentioned any of that so you're either making it up to justify your argument or attributing comments made by others to me (can't be bothered to re-read the thread to establish which).
And I'm sticking to my guns on the cause of accidents; it's one or a combination of driver error, car failure or (in extreme cases) an act of god. In itself speed never killed anyone; the inappropriate use of speed may well have done but what makes the speed inappropriate? Poor judgement by the driver (i.e. driver error).
Edited by JNW1 on Saturday 28th April 22:24
I guess slightly OT but I think comparison can be interesting.
Speed cameras in Sweden.
If I get the facts right, Sweden has lower road fatalitys then the UK. I´ll try to explain how speed cameras work in Sweden (if anyone is interested).
Speed cameras were launch in 2006 in Sweden. (There had been a try-out in the middle of the nineties which didn´t work out that great).
Today there are about 1600 cameras. They are great for safety if you have to believe the authorities and there is almost no speed traps with laser guns anymore. There are 200 traffic cops in Sweden and they rarely do speed checks, and when they do it´s often out side schools or similiar. I think it is something like 10 years since I spotted a speed trap.
Back to speed cameras. The radar is always active to collect data. The camera is rarely active, maybe 3-5% of the cameras is active at the same time. Less during the summer holidays I would say.
The camera will always flash when taking a photo. You have to go at least +6 km/h (3,75 mph) over the limit to trigger the camera if it´s active.
The photo is taken when you are 15 m (16 yd) away from the camera, which is clearly visible in daylight.
Were the speed limit is 60 km/h (37,3 mph) or more, the fine starts at 1500 SEK (£125) (up to 10 km/h (6,2 mph) over the limit).
Maximum fine is 4000 SEK (£335) and starts at 36 km/h (22,4 mph) over the limit.
As a Swede you lose your license if they catch you at 31 km/h (19,3 mph) over the limit or more.
31 km/h over the limit will give you a 2 month ban. 41 km/h (25,5 mph) 3 month ban and so on up to 71 km/h.
From 81 km/h (50,3 mph) over the limit, you will be given a 8 month ban.
So the punishment seems pretty harsh. My license have been revoked 8 times over the years.
But when it comes to speed cameras, the photo has to show the face of the driver!
So the only thing you have to do if you don´t give a damn about the low speed limits in Sweden is to hide your face when the camera flash.
I have lost count how many flash i´ve got since 2006 but it´s probably over 100. You would think when you commute and the same camera is triggerd they would finally wait for you, but that seems not to be a problem from my experience.
So the majority doesn´t get a fine and those who get one probably deserves one.
After all, if you didn´t spot the camera in daylight, you wasn´t focusing on driving which you always should be.
Video showing speed cameras in Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ5qeNHbJRg&t=...
UK citizens, what I know of they don´t even try to fine you guys. They will only fine people living in Scandinavia (we are talking speed cameras).
As for "Perverting the course of justice", I don´t even think that´s a crime in Sweden. Seems odd to me that people on PH think Mr Hill deserve jail.
The only real crime seems to be littering when he threw a laser jammer in the river. Could be expensive but definitely not jail.
Speed cameras in Sweden.
If I get the facts right, Sweden has lower road fatalitys then the UK. I´ll try to explain how speed cameras work in Sweden (if anyone is interested).
Speed cameras were launch in 2006 in Sweden. (There had been a try-out in the middle of the nineties which didn´t work out that great).
Today there are about 1600 cameras. They are great for safety if you have to believe the authorities and there is almost no speed traps with laser guns anymore. There are 200 traffic cops in Sweden and they rarely do speed checks, and when they do it´s often out side schools or similiar. I think it is something like 10 years since I spotted a speed trap.
Back to speed cameras. The radar is always active to collect data. The camera is rarely active, maybe 3-5% of the cameras is active at the same time. Less during the summer holidays I would say.
The camera will always flash when taking a photo. You have to go at least +6 km/h (3,75 mph) over the limit to trigger the camera if it´s active.
The photo is taken when you are 15 m (16 yd) away from the camera, which is clearly visible in daylight.
Were the speed limit is 60 km/h (37,3 mph) or more, the fine starts at 1500 SEK (£125) (up to 10 km/h (6,2 mph) over the limit).
Maximum fine is 4000 SEK (£335) and starts at 36 km/h (22,4 mph) over the limit.
As a Swede you lose your license if they catch you at 31 km/h (19,3 mph) over the limit or more.
31 km/h over the limit will give you a 2 month ban. 41 km/h (25,5 mph) 3 month ban and so on up to 71 km/h.
From 81 km/h (50,3 mph) over the limit, you will be given a 8 month ban.
So the punishment seems pretty harsh. My license have been revoked 8 times over the years.
But when it comes to speed cameras, the photo has to show the face of the driver!
So the only thing you have to do if you don´t give a damn about the low speed limits in Sweden is to hide your face when the camera flash.
I have lost count how many flash i´ve got since 2006 but it´s probably over 100. You would think when you commute and the same camera is triggerd they would finally wait for you, but that seems not to be a problem from my experience.
So the majority doesn´t get a fine and those who get one probably deserves one.
After all, if you didn´t spot the camera in daylight, you wasn´t focusing on driving which you always should be.
Video showing speed cameras in Sweden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ5qeNHbJRg&t=...
UK citizens, what I know of they don´t even try to fine you guys. They will only fine people living in Scandinavia (we are talking speed cameras).
As for "Perverting the course of justice", I don´t even think that´s a crime in Sweden. Seems odd to me that people on PH think Mr Hill deserve jail.
The only real crime seems to be littering when he threw a laser jammer in the river. Could be expensive but definitely not jail.
Edited by ManualOnly on Monday 30th April 16:19
Edited by ManualOnly on Monday 30th April 20:26
ManualOnly said:
You have to go at least +6 km/h (3,75 mph) over the limit to trigger the camera if it´s active.
Were the speed limit is 60 km/h (37,3 mph) or more, the fine starts at 1500 SEK (£125) (up to 10 km/h (6,2 mph) over the limit).
Maximum fine is 4000 SEK (£335) and starts at 36 km/h (22,4 mph) over the limit.
As a Swede you lose your license if they catch you at 31 km/h (19,3 mph) over the limit or more.
31 km/h over the limit will give you a 2 month ban. 41 km/h (25,5 mph) 3 month ban and so on up to 71 km/h.
From 81 km/h (50,3 mph) over the limit, you will be given a 8 month ban.
That puts our regime here into perspective...Were the speed limit is 60 km/h (37,3 mph) or more, the fine starts at 1500 SEK (£125) (up to 10 km/h (6,2 mph) over the limit).
Maximum fine is 4000 SEK (£335) and starts at 36 km/h (22,4 mph) over the limit.
As a Swede you lose your license if they catch you at 31 km/h (19,3 mph) over the limit or more.
31 km/h over the limit will give you a 2 month ban. 41 km/h (25,5 mph) 3 month ban and so on up to 71 km/h.
From 81 km/h (50,3 mph) over the limit, you will be given a 8 month ban.
ManualOnly] said:
My license have been revoked 8 times over the years.
And what's the effect on your insurance of that history?TooMany2cvs said:
And what's the effect on your insurance of that history?
The problem when the license has been revoked is the system will tell the insurance company that you got your license the date when your license was returned to you. You seems to be an inexperienced driver.In the past I have just told the insurance company when I first got the license and as long as the license was revoked for speeding and not careless driving or something like that, several but not all were happy to change the date.
For comparison, my 2015 RS265 is £460/year fully comp.
Bluebottle911 said:
What a pillock!
“If you want to attract our attention, repeatedly gesturing at police camera vans with your middle finger while you’re driving a distinctive car fitted with a laser jammer is an excellent way to do it."
Couldn't have put it better myself!
He was a complete pillock as almost everyone on here agrees. But what's that got to do with receiving an 8 month jail sentence for a completely victimless crime? Although some rather bizarre people on here think that the justice system is the victim, seriously, you couldn't make it up. “If you want to attract our attention, repeatedly gesturing at police camera vans with your middle finger while you’re driving a distinctive car fitted with a laser jammer is an excellent way to do it."
Couldn't have put it better myself!
jm doc said:
Bluebottle911 said:
What a pillock!
“If you want to attract our attention, repeatedly gesturing at police camera vans with your middle finger while you’re driving a distinctive car fitted with a laser jammer is an excellent way to do it."
Couldn't have put it better myself!
He was a complete pillock as almost everyone on here agrees. But what's that got to do with receiving an 8 month jail sentence for a completely victimless crime? Although some rather bizarre people on here think that the justice system is the victim, seriously, you couldn't make it up. “If you want to attract our attention, repeatedly gesturing at police camera vans with your middle finger while you’re driving a distinctive car fitted with a laser jammer is an excellent way to do it."
Couldn't have put it better myself!
HE DIDN'T GET THE SENTENCE FOR THE JAMMER.
I cant say that any more clearly.
He got the jail sentence for interfering with a police investigation and attempting to destroy evidence. This is called Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice (PCoJ for brevity's sake) and its a crime that needs to be taken seriously, in fact the only reason he got just 8 months for it is because he pleaded guilty (and will likely only serve 3 or 4 months).
Had he not tried to do that... he would have walked out of court with some points, a fine and a tongue lashing (IIRC 3 points and around £300)
captain_cynic said:
Sigh, we've been over this before.
HE DIDN'T GET THE SENTENCE FOR THE JAMMER.
I cant say that any more clearly.
He got the jail sentence for interfering with a police investigation and attempting to destroy evidence. This is called Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice (PCoJ for brevity's sake) and its a crime that needs to be taken seriously, in fact the only reason he got just 8 months for it is because he pleaded guilty (and will likely only serve 3 or 4 months).
Had he not tried to do that... he would have walked out of court with some points, a fine and a tongue lashing (IIRC 3 points and around £300)
All very true but I still say that our overcrowded and expensive to run jails should be reserved for more serious & dangerous criminals.HE DIDN'T GET THE SENTENCE FOR THE JAMMER.
I cant say that any more clearly.
He got the jail sentence for interfering with a police investigation and attempting to destroy evidence. This is called Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice (PCoJ for brevity's sake) and its a crime that needs to be taken seriously, in fact the only reason he got just 8 months for it is because he pleaded guilty (and will likely only serve 3 or 4 months).
Had he not tried to do that... he would have walked out of court with some points, a fine and a tongue lashing (IIRC 3 points and around £300)
3-400 hours community service & a big fine would have been more suitable and cheaper for the taxpayers.
bad company said:
All very true but I still say that our overcrowded and expensive to run jails should be reserved for more serious & dangerous criminals.
3-400 hours community service & a big fine would have been more suitable and cheaper for the taxpayers.
As serious as PCoJ is... I cant disagree. This obnoxious moron is costing the rest of us, I'd be more than happy for him to be picking up rubbish from the side of the motorway for however many weekends is 400 hours.3-400 hours community service & a big fine would have been more suitable and cheaper for the taxpayers.
Although the idea of one of the more hardened criminals taking a shine to him is amusing... in reality he's going to a white collar resort rather than to one of Her Majesty's finer establishments... That's if he gets there at all, I sense he's about to develop a sudden bout of extreme anxiety and cant be locked up for health reasons.
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