Could this happen in the UK?
Discussion
davidball said:
La Liga said:
t is blunt, but check his posting history for the justification of the comment. He received the benefit of the doubt when he started commenting on police firearms threads. Others and I took the time to explain things and give some insight. However, it quickly clear he had no interest other than to push his incorrect and narrow narrative.
I hope I don't come across with a 'chip'. I'm perfectly happy to accept police wrong-doing when it's supported (not commenting on this incident) by evidence and facts.
But you do exhibit a chip on your shoulder and the "edit" to make more sense failed.I hope I don't come across with a 'chip'. I'm perfectly happy to accept police wrong-doing when it's supported (not commenting on this incident) by evidence and facts.
- Edited to make more sense.
It is important to be alert to the instances where police officers overstep their authority and fail in their duties. From the brutal killing of an innocent, unarmed, man on his way to work by police gunmen to the arrest on terror charges and 12 hour detention of a man who complained about police vehicles parked on double yellow lines so officers could get their preferred take-away. The culture of police immunity is insidious and needs to be challenged at every opportunity.
The toothless IPCC has been replaced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Will police forces be able to ignore its findings and recommendations?
The toothless IPCC has been replaced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Will police forces be able to ignore its findings and recommendations?
davidball said:
It is important to be alert to the instances where police officers overstep their authority and fail in their duties. From the brutal killing of an innocent, unarmed, man on his way to work by police gunmen to the arrest on terror charges and 12 hour detention of a man who complained about police vehicles parked on double yellow lines so officers could get their preferred take-away. The culture of police immunity is insidious and needs to be challenged at every opportunity.
The toothless IPCC has been replaced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Will police forces be able to ignore its findings and recommendations?
The same could be said of anybody in a position of authority/being able to make decisions having a high impact on peoples' lives. Why single out the police?The toothless IPCC has been replaced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Will police forces be able to ignore its findings and recommendations?
rscott said:
Then there's the Starbucks arrest - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43815589
Update on the Starbucks arrests :-Black men arrested in Starbucks settle for $1 each and $200,000 program for young people.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/02/b...
La Liga said:
f they didn't have the option to 'ignore' the recommendation, it wouldn't be a recommendation, would it?
That why I complain about police immunity. What is the point of financing an organization that has no powers to force the police to take action? This new iteration for independent oversight and control does not appear to be any different from the IPCC. Time will tell if it is another waste of time and public money.davidball said:
That why I complain about police immunity. What is the point of financing an organization that has no powers to force the police to take action? This new iteration for independent oversight and control does not appear to be any different from the IPCC. Time will tell if it is another waste of time and public money.
Provide me with an example of where the IPCC / IOPC have made a recommendation that hasn't been followed which should have been. On an individual basis, the IOPC have the power to compel an officer to an interview (no one else is subject to this) and work with the CPS.
On a strategic / management level, the police work with the IOPC to implement changes that aim to make things better. Have a look through these pages and the .PDFs: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/research-and-lear...
You see 'actions taken by this force' boxes, which are the implementation of the recommendations.
The IOPC also have additional powers with other areas you can find here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/content...
Saying things like, 'police immunity', when one can easily criminal charges / misconduct findings against officers is stupid.
La Liga said:
rovide me with an example of where the IPCC / IOPC have made a recommendation that hasn't been followed which should have been.
On an individual basis, the IOPC have the power to compel an officer to an interview (no one else is subject to this) and work with the CPS.
On a strategic / management level, the police work with the IOPC to implement changes that aim to make things better. Have a look through these pages and the .PDFs: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/research-and-lear...
You see 'actions taken by this force' boxes, which are the implementation of the recommendations.
The IOPC also have additional powers with other areas you can find here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/content...
Saying things like, 'police immunity', when one can easily criminal charges / misconduct findings against officers is stupid.
I am very interested in your use of the phrase "which should have been." This suggests that you or someone thinks the IPCC have made recommendations they should not have. Examples please, while I dig out the link to an interview with a previous head of the IPCC who was speaking about a police force that kept ignoring her requests for details about the action taken against an officer, or rather the lack of.
When an unarmed, innocent man on his way to work can be executed on a tube train by police gunmen and only Health & Safety charges are considered I call that immunity. Whether you like or not.
On an individual basis, the IOPC have the power to compel an officer to an interview (no one else is subject to this) and work with the CPS.
On a strategic / management level, the police work with the IOPC to implement changes that aim to make things better. Have a look through these pages and the .PDFs: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/research-and-lear...
You see 'actions taken by this force' boxes, which are the implementation of the recommendations.
The IOPC also have additional powers with other areas you can find here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/content...
Saying things like, 'police immunity', when one can easily criminal charges / misconduct findings against officers is stupid.
I am very interested in your use of the phrase "which should have been." This suggests that you or someone thinks the IPCC have made recommendations they should not have. Examples please, while I dig out the link to an interview with a previous head of the IPCC who was speaking about a police force that kept ignoring her requests for details about the action taken against an officer, or rather the lack of.
When an unarmed, innocent man on his way to work can be executed on a tube train by police gunmen and only Health & Safety charges are considered I call that immunity. Whether you like or not.
Examples of police tactics to thwart IPCC investigations.
BBC File on 4 - Policing the Police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q60pp
segments at 11:40 23:48 28:42 and 33:30
Transcript
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16_05_1...
Other material
http://www.thejusticegap.com/2017/05/allegations-p...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p014jvl5
BBC File on 4 - Policing the Police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q60pp
segments at 11:40 23:48 28:42 and 33:30
Transcript
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16_05_1...
Other material
http://www.thejusticegap.com/2017/05/allegations-p...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p014jvl5
davidball said:
The toothless IPCC has been replaced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Will police forces be able to ignore its findings and recommendations?
La Liga said:
Provide me with an example of where the IPCC / IOPC have made a recommendation that hasn't been followed which should have been.
davidball said:
Examples of police tactics to thwart IPCC investigations.
One thing at a time, David, don't overload yourself. You're asserting that not being able to force certain changes is an issue. Since you're asserting it, you need to support that assertion as it deviates from the norm with some form of cohesive, rational and evidence-based argument. Saying things doesn't make them so.
I gave you a subtle nod to how you may begin to do that by asking for examples. That could form the foundation of the said cohesive, rational and evidence-based argument. Instead you decided to give apparent examples answering a different question.
I gave you a number of examples of police forces ignoring IPCC decisions. The abundance of such behaviour has led to the demise of the IPCC (no loss that) and the creation of the new organisation. It still does not answer the problem. Police forces just have to give a reason why they will not take action if they choose not to. The important word is "choose". Nothing substantial has changed.
davidball said:
I gave you a number of examples of police forces ignoring IPCC decisions.
Did you? Let's have a look. I assume by 'decisions' you mean recommendations, since that's what you started with and what examples I asked for. davidball said:
Examples of police tactics to thwart IPCC investigations.
BBC File on 4 - Policing the Police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q60pp
segments at 11:40 23:48 28:42 and 33:30
11:40: Is half way through someone providing an opinion, which is presumably linked to something earlier. The next segment talks about appeals. Nothing to do with recommendations. BBC File on 4 - Policing the Police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q60pp
segments at 11:40 23:48 28:42 and 33:30
23:48: Is talking about an example where the IPCC successfully caused a police force to hold a tribunal. This does the opposite of supporting your point and how you call them 'toothless'.
28:42: Is again half way through someone providing a story which is talking about a police officer involved in an employment tribunal along with a referral to the IPCC where the GMP used legal privilege to prevent the disclosure of privileged documents. Hint: If an investigation needs those documents then there isn't an investigation. Nothing to do with recommendations.
33:30: Is immediately prior to a senior officer who deals with ethics who 'sells' that side.
Good work.
The programme talks about the police and crime act which gives an overview of the changes between the IPCC and IOPC. Did you ignore that part and just select the parts you liked?
davidball said:
So searching the transcript for 'recommendations' highlights three examples which support the total opposite to your points / conclusions, or aren't relevant. Gregory provides an example of the IPCC reversing a decision.
Owers gives and example of the IPCC pressing a force to hold a hearing.
Oswald talks of the IPCC not choosing to recommend a matter (and possibly pursue the above), for whatever reason. Regardless of the rights and wrongs (and what the 'other' side has to say), that's nothing to do with the police ignoring a recommendation as the IPCC apparently didn't make one.
davidball said:
The abundance of such (ignoring decisions) behaviour has led to the demise of the IPCC (no loss that) and the creation of the new organisation.
Did it? Where are you concluding that from? davidball said:
It still does not answer the problem. Police forces just have to give a reason why they will not take action if they choose not to. The important word is "choose". Nothing substantial has changed.
Again, where has it been a problem? Re-branding is often merely a PR exercise which is designed to gull the publlc into believing that a shiny new coin has been minted.
All fresh and excellent value. Whereas it's actually the same old with a fancy new outer covering.
Will that be the case with the IOPC? The jury is still out. Only time will tell.
All fresh and excellent value. Whereas it's actually the same old with a fancy new outer covering.
Will that be the case with the IOPC? The jury is still out. Only time will tell.
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