Fences & Neighbours
Discussion
Mending Wall
BY ROBERT FROST
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
BY ROBERT FROST
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
NDA said:
Get a copy of her deeds from Land Registry (£3 or thereabouts) and see what they say. They're probably similar to yours.
If it is truly shared (i.e. shared responsibility) it might be the case that she is happy with the fence the way it is and possibly unhappy with a bill being thrust in her face just because you want a new fence.
My property is the last house up an unadopted track - the maintenance of the track is shared. However, one family (only 6 properties in total) don't contribute to the maintenance and yet they're happy to have the benefit of thousands of pounds of annual maintenance. Nothing I can do about it as there's no legal agreement for them to contribute. It's irritating, but there's nothing we can do.
What you is not fix their frontage to the road. They will get the message.If it is truly shared (i.e. shared responsibility) it might be the case that she is happy with the fence the way it is and possibly unhappy with a bill being thrust in her face just because you want a new fence.
My property is the last house up an unadopted track - the maintenance of the track is shared. However, one family (only 6 properties in total) don't contribute to the maintenance and yet they're happy to have the benefit of thousands of pounds of annual maintenance. Nothing I can do about it as there's no legal agreement for them to contribute. It's irritating, but there's nothing we can do.
OP.
Without seeing deeds I will not advise beyond that if there is any obligation to fence, and the type and construction of the fence is not set out (nor part of the planning conditions relating to the propert), there isn't any more obligation than post and wire and even that is questionable.
Good Luck securing that judgement you'll need to charge her property.
The true practical answer though is if you want a £2k fence and she wants a lesser one she pays half the cost of the cheap one and you pay for your betterment.
Without seeing deeds I will not advise beyond that if there is any obligation to fence, and the type and construction of the fence is not set out (nor part of the planning conditions relating to the propert), there isn't any more obligation than post and wire and even that is questionable.
Good Luck securing that judgement you'll need to charge her property.
The true practical answer though is if you want a £2k fence and she wants a lesser one she pays half the cost of the cheap one and you pay for your betterment.
crofty1984 said:
Is it a legal requirement to have a fence at all?
Generally, no.http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-proble...
Breadvan72 said:
Mending Wall
BY ROBERT FROST
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
My wife studied Frost, I remember that quote.BY ROBERT FROST
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Red 4 said:
This.
There's nothing in law to force your neighbour to maintain, repair or replace a boundary fence.
Your deeds may say if the fence is replaced it should be at a shared cost but if she is happy with the way it is you can't force her to pay.
And you are thinking of putting a charge on her house for half the cost ? Really ? Good luck with that.
How many panels is the fence BTW for it to cost 2k ?
There's nothing in law to force your neighbour to maintain, repair or replace a boundary fence.
Your deeds may say if the fence is replaced it should be at a shared cost but if she is happy with the way it is you can't force her to pay.
And you are thinking of putting a charge on her house for half the cost ? Really ? Good luck with that.
How many panels is the fence BTW for it to cost 2k ?
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 27th May 10:53
Red 4 said:
This.
There's nothing in law to force your neighbour to maintain, repair or replace a boundary fence.
Your deeds may say if the fence is replaced it should be at a shared cost but if she is happy with the way it is you can't force her to pay.
And you are thinking of putting a charge on her house for half the cost ? Really ? Good luck with that.
How many panels is the fence BTW for it to cost 2k ?
I was wondering this, for comparison - There's nothing in law to force your neighbour to maintain, repair or replace a boundary fence.
Your deeds may say if the fence is replaced it should be at a shared cost but if she is happy with the way it is you can't force her to pay.
And you are thinking of putting a charge on her house for half the cost ? Really ? Good luck with that.
How many panels is the fence BTW for it to cost 2k ?
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 27th May 10:53
We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
Toltec said:
I was wondering this, for comparison -
We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
For a 6' high fence materials cost per section should be about $55 (7" 9" concrete post, concrete base panel, 5' fence panel, sand, cement, chippings for the post base - or a bag of postcrete).We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
Obviously add labour on top but I'd expect at least 10 sections per day for 2 guys (digging out old posts and new posts in - I've done more than that in a day with a mate).
Plus disposal of old fence.
For 2 grand, the op's fence must be huge !! (Which I doubt it will be if it's just one boundary fence on a new build estate).
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 27th May 18:35
98elise said:
valiant said:
You want to put a charge on her property if she doesn't pay her share? 'Kin hell!
She's skint and recently had her relationship collapse. The last thing on her 'to do' list is to replace the fence that your dogs have no doubt helped exacerbate the damage.
Be the better bloke and just replace the fence and be done with it. Good fences make good neighbours. I know an extra grand is a lot of money but you'll have the fence you want and the knowledge you've helped someone out.
Plus, being now single she may be a bit more 'grateful'
ThisShe's skint and recently had her relationship collapse. The last thing on her 'to do' list is to replace the fence that your dogs have no doubt helped exacerbate the damage.
Be the better bloke and just replace the fence and be done with it. Good fences make good neighbours. I know an extra grand is a lot of money but you'll have the fence you want and the knowledge you've helped someone out.
Plus, being now single she may be a bit more 'grateful'
My neighbor owns the fence to my right. Its rotting and falling down but she is old and alone so I'm paying for a replacement as I'm the one that wants it done.
OP - you need to sleep on this one and hopefully have some clarity as currently your thought process is going the wrong way.
Red 4 said:
Toltec said:
I was wondering this, for comparison -
We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
For a 6' high fence materials cost per section should be about $55 (7" 9" concrete post, concrete base panel, 5' fence panel, sand, cement, chippings for the post base - or a bag of postcrete).We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
Obviously add labour on top but I'd expect at least 10 sections per day for 2 guys (digging out old posts and new posts in - I've done more than that in a day with a mate).
Plus disposal of old fence.
For 2 grand, the op's fence must be huge !! (Which I doubt it will be if it's just one boundary fence on a new build estate).
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 27th May 18:35
You could also just train your dogs properly.
I have a staffy/lab cross that has a lovely but excitable temperament. he was a nightmare as a pup but with training at four years old no matter what rabbit/b
h/bone is waved in front of him, he will stop dead when his command word is issued.
If you can’t stop your dog running to interact with another, you need to train it (or the owner)
Alternatively, fix the fence or just get some really big vet collars or buy bones bigger than the holes.
I have a staffy/lab cross that has a lovely but excitable temperament. he was a nightmare as a pup but with training at four years old no matter what rabbit/b
h/bone is waved in front of him, he will stop dead when his command word is issued.If you can’t stop your dog running to interact with another, you need to train it (or the owner)
Alternatively, fix the fence or just get some really big vet collars or buy bones bigger than the holes.
OK, so this has been resolved.
It's not the dogs fault - the panels are totally rotten, coupled with the plants the previous owner put in, have meant that the slightest bit of pressure to cause them to cave in.
Round here we're talking a minimum of £100/panel for a professional to get involved.
Anyway, I went out this afternoon and they'd already been out and bought literally the cheapest panels possible - which aren't even the right panels (they bought panels to go in a slotted post). I worked with them all afternoon, including a trip to B&Q to get two new posts as we discovered they'd rotted, and we've bodged the fence in for now. I'll have to have a further day to this now to fix their mistake and get some batten against the edge of each post to anchor the damn panels to.
I've offered to pay half and corrected them on the title deed line they were trying to throw in on me - when read with the title plan, you can see immediately that the line they were relying upon referred to the border to the north, which was marked as being their responsibility.
I'm not happy with the quality of the fence that's been installed. I'm not happy that I've basically lost two days of my weekend to this shenanigans, and I'd have rather paid someone to get it done - but we're past that. I've made it quite clear to them that if this cheap st they've installed fails in 5 years, we'll be replacing the whole damn thing how I wanted it doing and we'll have to argue about the cost then. It's a typical case of buy cheap buy thrice - but some people can't be swayed, and they have all pitched in to help on their side to be fair to them, with just me working on my end.
The deeds are very clear as per my original post, and that they have the same stuff in theirs - as they bought from Bryant homes just as the previous proprietor of my house did. The obligation is for us to both repair or replace and to share the cost. A fence is required as a result of the deeds (for all those saying there's no obligation to have the fence).
She is at least, happy with the outcome, and we'll have to plant some new trees to screen it off a bit. Where we are in 5 years we'll see. I'm betting she'll be gone by then - her oldest is already living elsewhere, her partner was roped in to assist, her son is 17ish IIRC and the other daughter a bit younger - give it a few years and they'll all be gone and it'll be some other poor bugger's problem. I shall see if she's happy to sign a boundary agreement and we can get the fence properly registered with the land registry in the mean time, I'm happy to spend the £40 required!
It's not the dogs fault - the panels are totally rotten, coupled with the plants the previous owner put in, have meant that the slightest bit of pressure to cause them to cave in.
Round here we're talking a minimum of £100/panel for a professional to get involved.
Anyway, I went out this afternoon and they'd already been out and bought literally the cheapest panels possible - which aren't even the right panels (they bought panels to go in a slotted post). I worked with them all afternoon, including a trip to B&Q to get two new posts as we discovered they'd rotted, and we've bodged the fence in for now. I'll have to have a further day to this now to fix their mistake and get some batten against the edge of each post to anchor the damn panels to.
I've offered to pay half and corrected them on the title deed line they were trying to throw in on me - when read with the title plan, you can see immediately that the line they were relying upon referred to the border to the north, which was marked as being their responsibility.
I'm not happy with the quality of the fence that's been installed. I'm not happy that I've basically lost two days of my weekend to this shenanigans, and I'd have rather paid someone to get it done - but we're past that. I've made it quite clear to them that if this cheap s
t they've installed fails in 5 years, we'll be replacing the whole damn thing how I wanted it doing and we'll have to argue about the cost then. It's a typical case of buy cheap buy thrice - but some people can't be swayed, and they have all pitched in to help on their side to be fair to them, with just me working on my end.The deeds are very clear as per my original post, and that they have the same stuff in theirs - as they bought from Bryant homes just as the previous proprietor of my house did. The obligation is for us to both repair or replace and to share the cost. A fence is required as a result of the deeds (for all those saying there's no obligation to have the fence).
She is at least, happy with the outcome, and we'll have to plant some new trees to screen it off a bit. Where we are in 5 years we'll see. I'm betting she'll be gone by then - her oldest is already living elsewhere, her partner was roped in to assist, her son is 17ish IIRC and the other daughter a bit younger - give it a few years and they'll all be gone and it'll be some other poor bugger's problem. I shall see if she's happy to sign a boundary agreement and we can get the fence properly registered with the land registry in the mean time, I'm happy to spend the £40 required!
Toltec said:
I was wondering this, for comparison -
We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
The quote was for 11 panels, though from my discussion with her the end two she had done fairly recently, so I'd have left those be (I can't see them anyway, they're out of the way in the corner) so it would have been slightly less - probably around £1600ish for that. That's about £150 a panel and would probably have been a two day job.We had a concrete post fence put in last year, the existing fence was one I had put in sixteen years ago, it was still sound, however the small forty year old retaining wall it was just inside was starting to lean quite badly and as it crossed over three other neighbours I decided to sort it before it caused a problem. The company I had in removed the old fence and wall and used ten foot posts and two or three concrete gravel boards per section to form a new fence and to retain the 25 to 50cm soil height difference. It cost about £120 per section iirc, some companies quoted double and really didn't want to do it going on their attitude. Seven new sections of fence in two days, two guys on the first day removed the old fence and wall, four guys on the second put the new fence in.
crofty1984 said:
Is it a legal requirement to have a fence at all? If it blew down or otherwise disappeared one day, would the law dictate that a fence was put up if both parties were happy to not have one? I know where I live the deeds specially say we can't have fence round some of our gardens. Though, to be fair, most people ignore it and nobody minds.
In this case, it's dictated by the requirements in the deeds.Jasandjules said:
To keep dogs in get a deer fence shoved up - inside your boundary.
Not the stupidest suggestion! I'd already considered a inner fence actually to stop the dogs from getting to the boundary, and that will likely be done when the extension and other building work happens. It'll also make poo-picking a darn sight easier!Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff