£144 per hour for non emergency plumber
Discussion
Willhire89 said:
Right - so it is trial next. It is very likely it will be a different Judge and possibly a different approach - my claim had three court dates for pre trial and trial and all were a different beak.
The part that caught out both sides at the actual trial was that each side has the opportunity to cross examine the other and I had some killer questions for them to 'explain' which whilst I sort of got there were not as damningly framed as they could be..
I suggest you write out for yourself the questions ahead of the day - maybe
Mr Plumber could you explain the mismatch on your company name?
Mr Plumber could you explain what actual work/solution you delivered for your fee?
Mr Plumber could you tell us how long you were on site that day?
Mr Plumber could you explain your mismatch of costs to claim?
Stick with tough to answer questions, not too many and away from irrelevancies and whiny stuff and let the Judge see who he's dealing with for himself
Good luck!
Thank you. The part that caught out both sides at the actual trial was that each side has the opportunity to cross examine the other and I had some killer questions for them to 'explain' which whilst I sort of got there were not as damningly framed as they could be..
I suggest you write out for yourself the questions ahead of the day - maybe
Mr Plumber could you explain the mismatch on your company name?
Mr Plumber could you explain what actual work/solution you delivered for your fee?
Mr Plumber could you tell us how long you were on site that day?
Mr Plumber could you explain your mismatch of costs to claim?
Stick with tough to answer questions, not too many and away from irrelevancies and whiny stuff and let the Judge see who he's dealing with for himself
Good luck!
TheBALDpuma said:
Playing devils advocate here...
I don't know the OP, or the plumber. The fact that the plumber is so sure he's in the right combined with the prelim judge saying it might be best to settle outside of court makes me wonder whether we're hearing the exact facts of the story, or whether we're getting a slightly "adjusted to suit story". Similar to a mate who has broken up with a partner on bad terms, you'll only get your mates side that the OH was a dick/POS/liar etc. It's human nature to want people on your side in this kind of scenerio, combined with PH nature that every PHer will jump on their horse with their shining body armour on when a girl posts here so everyone is rallying for her makes it even easier to jump on the bandwagon.
If the OP has been wronged (which I am inclined to think she has) then I hope this all work out in her favour and she gets it sorted.
But I will not be totally surpised if the court doesn't end up ruling totally in her favour. Not based on what has been said, just based on the fact we only have one side of a story here.
I know what you mean because I am even doubting myself here. I don't know the OP, or the plumber. The fact that the plumber is so sure he's in the right combined with the prelim judge saying it might be best to settle outside of court makes me wonder whether we're hearing the exact facts of the story, or whether we're getting a slightly "adjusted to suit story". Similar to a mate who has broken up with a partner on bad terms, you'll only get your mates side that the OH was a dick/POS/liar etc. It's human nature to want people on your side in this kind of scenerio, combined with PH nature that every PHer will jump on their horse with their shining body armour on when a girl posts here so everyone is rallying for her makes it even easier to jump on the bandwagon.
If the OP has been wronged (which I am inclined to think she has) then I hope this all work out in her favour and she gets it sorted.
But I will not be totally surpised if the court doesn't end up ruling totally in her favour. Not based on what has been said, just based on the fact we only have one side of a story here.
What have I missed that makes the plumber feel its worth going through all this hassle for this money?
What work has he done that makes him think he can charge me?
Why couldnt the judge yesterday have read through the details to know he is just a conman or rogue?
I wouldnt be surprised if the court in the ends doesnt rule 100% in my favour as its a lot of he said she said. I just can't see a judge ruling that he is honestly owed all that money. He's already had £42 off me and that should have been enough for him to feel he had some form of payment for his little time doing nothing.
I know the court doesnt care, and its not something that will ever be cared about in court, but having a man in your house who refuses to leave is scary and has left a mark on me even now.
The level of panic and anxiety I felt yesterday at seeing him and having to speak to him face to face is not something I would expect to happen faced in a similar situation with a reasonable person who is just asking to paid for a fair days work.
bad company said:
Vaud said:
"another" good day in court...
Just how often is he in court???
He didn’t have a ‘good day’ imo. As far as I can see his case is almost bound to fail and he also failed to intimidate the op.Just how often is he in court???
Op, someone else advised taking down the Facebook link, that’s good advice. You don’t want to fall foul of the PH name & shame rules. I’d hate to see this thread pulled by the mods.
_dobbo_ said:
mangos said:
I think my next course of action will be to get legal advise and if I continue on my route of fighting this I may have to get the thread pulled anyway.
Look at it this way, your worst case is going to be you pay £324, which nobody actually thinks is going to happen to you.On this basis, it's a fairly low risk situation. I say stick with it and get your advice here - lots of experience in these sorts of matters available to you from people here.
The impression I was under from the debt collectors letter was that I would be liable for additional costs if I lose. They also mention about the potential for my credit rating to be affected as I would be given a CCJ.
This is the excerpt from that debt collectors letter:
I have just taken snippets from all 3 invoices. The first one being the intial invoice written out by the plumber that I signed.
The second one was the invoice emailed to me 7 days after his visit with the late fee added.
The third one was the invoice emailed to me 7 days after that with an additional admin fee added. Within that email they say it has been escalated to debt collectors.
The debt collectors chase me for £300.00
The small claim is for £324.00
Am I missing something or is the maths incorrect?
The second one was the invoice emailed to me 7 days after his visit with the late fee added.
The third one was the invoice emailed to me 7 days after that with an additional admin fee added. Within that email they say it has been escalated to debt collectors.
The debt collectors chase me for £300.00
The small claim is for £324.00
Am I missing something or is the maths incorrect?
dmsims said:
What was the hourly rate ?
He never actually told me the hourly rate or wrote it down.He listed his time working at 1.5 hours. His original invoice inc vat was £216, so that is £144 per hour, which ties into what is listed on his website under rates for leak detection work.
I have been racking my brain as to this evidence the plumber has on me that he told me outside of court would mean I have no chance to win.
I have gone back through all the facebook messages (where I initially requested a recommended plumber) and there was nothing there. I then looked through my messenger messages and found one that I have worded as such:
''I have an old faulty boiler that I'd like to replaced with a Worcester boiler.
I was also wondering if you could check for a leak and replacing any faulty pipework if so.
If you are in the area soon and are interested in quoting, please let me know. ''
This is the only wording i can find that makes him think that I have instructed him to do the work.
Is this all he needs? (In which case I will just pay up and be done, as I dont want to go through all this for him to win on this technicality if so).
To confirm (for anyone who hasn't gone back to the beginning of the thread) - they never quoted me for leak detection work, just waved a moisture meter around, despite telling me they couldn't pressure test the system as the boiler itself was leaking).
They charged me 1.5 hrs work at £144 per hour.
At no point prior to or during the visit did they say they would charge for an estimate. At no point prior or during did they say their rates or give any T&C's until the point they presented me with an invoice to sign. Of which they held down, so that I could sign it one handed.
At no point during or after the visit did he say that he could carry out a leak detection service for me, or provide any proposed work for leak detection requiring a return visit.
Following his visit I had my house checked for damp (as he told me I had rising damp and suggested I use a company called Rainbow International.)
Surveyor left saying no damp.
Following on from that I had an engineer who replaced my boiler and confirmed there was no hidden pipework in walls or leaks. (Without the need for specialist equipment)
I have gone back through all the facebook messages (where I initially requested a recommended plumber) and there was nothing there. I then looked through my messenger messages and found one that I have worded as such:
''I have an old faulty boiler that I'd like to replaced with a Worcester boiler.
I was also wondering if you could check for a leak and replacing any faulty pipework if so.
If you are in the area soon and are interested in quoting, please let me know. ''
This is the only wording i can find that makes him think that I have instructed him to do the work.
Is this all he needs? (In which case I will just pay up and be done, as I dont want to go through all this for him to win on this technicality if so).
To confirm (for anyone who hasn't gone back to the beginning of the thread) - they never quoted me for leak detection work, just waved a moisture meter around, despite telling me they couldn't pressure test the system as the boiler itself was leaking).
They charged me 1.5 hrs work at £144 per hour.
At no point prior to or during the visit did they say they would charge for an estimate. At no point prior or during did they say their rates or give any T&C's until the point they presented me with an invoice to sign. Of which they held down, so that I could sign it one handed.
At no point during or after the visit did he say that he could carry out a leak detection service for me, or provide any proposed work for leak detection requiring a return visit.
Following his visit I had my house checked for damp (as he told me I had rising damp and suggested I use a company called Rainbow International.)
Surveyor left saying no damp.
Following on from that I had an engineer who replaced my boiler and confirmed there was no hidden pipework in walls or leaks. (Without the need for specialist equipment)
dmsims said:
mangos said:
dmsims said:
What was the hourly rate ?
He never actually told me the hourly rate or wrote it down.He listed his time working at 1.5 hours. His original invoice inc vat was £216, so that is £144 per hour, which ties into what is listed on his website under rates for leak detection work.
They did not do leak detection
Henzy said:
No chance
ETA He is probably talking about the signed invoice, the one you signed under duress?
Im not too sure. He didnt seem bothered by the invoice I signed at all but ouside of court he said:ETA He is probably talking about the signed invoice, the one you signed under duress?
Edited by Henzy on Friday 15th February 13:48
'I have a screenshot of a message you sent that proves Im right'
bad company said:
V8mate said:
mangos said:
Im not too sure. He didnt seem bothered by the invoice I signed at all but ouside of court he said:
'I have a screenshot of a message you sent that proves Im right'
He'll have to share that with you ahead of the case being heard.'I have a screenshot of a message you sent that proves Im right'
He seems so adamant that he has no problem here...
ETA - Just to clarify, there are definitely no other messages. It was all so brief from start to finish.
I asked on Facebook, they contacted me. I messaged back explaining what I was looking for.
They visited the following Monday.
All correspondence after has been in email format and disputing costs and requesting explanation / clarification. none of which they have given me.
Edited by mangos on Friday 15th February 15:36
mangos said:
Even if he does share it with me ahead of the hearing. If its that same message do I have anything to worry about?
He seems so adamant that he has no problem here...
ETA - Just to clarify, there are definitely no other messages. It was all so brief from start to finish.
I asked on Facebook, they contacted me. I messaged back explaining what I was looking for.
They visited the following Monday.
All correspondence after has been in email format and disputing costs and requesting explanation / clarification. none of which they have given me.
reading that back knocks it home how this is such bad luck, and reconfirmed my hatred for facebook He seems so adamant that he has no problem here...
ETA - Just to clarify, there are definitely no other messages. It was all so brief from start to finish.
I asked on Facebook, they contacted me. I messaged back explaining what I was looking for.
They visited the following Monday.
All correspondence after has been in email format and disputing costs and requesting explanation / clarification. none of which they have given me.
Edited by mangos on Friday 15th February 15:36
Leicester Loyal said:
Mangos he's just trying to bully you into backing down.
Don't pay for legal advice, you've done well up until now, stick with it. Once this is all over you can plaster his name all over social media and let people know what he's actually like.
People need to delete the quote of his real name also.
Chin up Mangos!
Thanks Leicester. Don't pay for legal advice, you've done well up until now, stick with it. Once this is all over you can plaster his name all over social media and let people know what he's actually like.
People need to delete the quote of his real name also.
Chin up Mangos!
I am so close to giving up, but this is the support I need.
On your next point - I think there may be a reason that the bad reviews on social media and google seem to get removed. I dont know what this guy is capable of, but he certainly likes to come across as someone who's not scared of a fight. I dont think he would be too happy if things dont go his way.
V8mate said:
I think the OP should have taken 50:50 yesterday. She's now got another period of stress and, frankly, I don't think the claimant will walk away from the hearing empty handed. Having seen several friends tackle scarily shoddy tradesmen in the local courts, not one of them has come away with a 100% decision in their favour.
I agreed to 50/50 yesterday but it was the plumber who refused Wings said:
Today Mangos stated, I looked through my messenger messages and found one that I have worded as such, and wings quotes the same "I have an old faulty boiler that I'd like to replaced with a Worcester boiler. I was wondering if you could check for a leak and replacing any faulty pipework if so. If you are in the area soon and are interested in quoting, please let me know"
Whilst the plumber has not quoted for the leak detection work, neither does it appear that Mangos has made a prior enquiry of what the costs for the same would be. Mangos's above message does indicate to me Mangos was expecting a freebie leak detection work, and the offer of the plumber quoting for a boiler, was Mangos dangling a carrot for a freebie leak check.
The charge by the plumber is for travelling to Mango's home and for the leak detection work, the latter does not entail the plumber finding a leak, only seeking detection of a possible leak.
I paid £42 call out fee as it is. Whilst the plumber has not quoted for the leak detection work, neither does it appear that Mangos has made a prior enquiry of what the costs for the same would be. Mangos's above message does indicate to me Mangos was expecting a freebie leak detection work, and the offer of the plumber quoting for a boiler, was Mangos dangling a carrot for a freebie leak check.
The charge by the plumber is for travelling to Mango's home and for the leak detection work, the latter does not entail the plumber finding a leak, only seeking detection of a possible leak.
I don’t expect anything for free.
I also don’t expect to be charged £144 per hour for no work or even attempt to work
Andeh1 said:
Mangos is where she is, and in principle alone she is a victorious. Even IF IF IF IF she looses, it has cost him 2 days pay & the hassle as well. Despite all his bluff & bluster this wont be a 'casual day in the office' for the him either. Low life's survive off Facebook bravado & that's all he will be presenting to his mates.
Myself & some fellow pistonheaders will chip in to help cover her expenses, especially having talked my wife through Mango's experiences.... She is frothing in anger at the audacity of this bellend. She is also biting at the bit to get at his Facebook/googled reviews.... In good time!
I still genuinely feel on a "balence of
probabilities" she has a good case. *WE* just need to ensure she goes in with the right angle to play.
Mango's please ensure you are able to accept private messages. Please post up your plan/ key facts as written down, and the next date, and give us time to advise.
Finally, whatever the outcome please remember, you are not in this alone!
As soon as I can accept private messages I will let you know. Myself & some fellow pistonheaders will chip in to help cover her expenses, especially having talked my wife through Mango's experiences.... She is frothing in anger at the audacity of this bellend. She is also biting at the bit to get at his Facebook/googled reviews.... In good time!
I still genuinely feel on a "balence of
probabilities" she has a good case. *WE* just need to ensure she goes in with the right angle to play.
Mango's please ensure you are able to accept private messages. Please post up your plan/ key facts as written down, and the next date, and give us time to advise.
Finally, whatever the outcome please remember, you are not in this alone!
And thank you to you and Mrs Andeh for your support
tony wright said:
Obviously I understand this and have followed the thread since the start, but as previously mentioned... who’s to say the won’t lie and say not only did they have the equipment they also spent the time testing for leaks. It will then be the Op’s Word against theirs.
Reason I mentioned this is not to worry the Op, but to possibly pre-warn her and if anyone could advise her if it was to happen what she could do.
The thought of them lying in court has increased further since the allocation heRing on Wednesday when he was happy to lie about when he said he wasn’t a LTD company until 9 months ago Reason I mentioned this is not to worry the Op, but to possibly pre-warn her and if anyone could advise her if it was to happen what she could do.
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