Legal Issue with EBAY
Discussion
davek_964 said:
Shedding said:
davek_964 said:
Exactly. And hardly unfair - given that the terms are a 10% charge, which might be considered expensive but is hardly unfair contract terms.
In the extreme, if I had put a few extra zeros on, would you think it fair for ebay to charge me a fee for a £2M sale?The reason you are claiming it's unfair is because you claim that you didn't sell it for that amount - but that doesn't make the terms of the contract unfair. It simply means that you have to prove that you did not sell it for that amount - even though the info you put in yourself on their website suggests you did.
not much of a defence I'm afraid and the judge will say "prove it beyond reasonable doubt then".
OP, how did you end the listing? Did you mark the item as sold?
Despite where sentiment looks like it's going here, I think ebay are wrong in trying to charge you £200 as that isn't 10% of the sale price.
If I were you, I'd sit down and have a good read of what the terms and conditions say. If they say the charge is 10% of what the item sold for or similar wording, I'd be point that out again (as you have done) and stick firm.
I also think there may be merit in arguing that attempting to charge you 10% of an amount much larger than the wheels sold for (if that's the way their terms are written) is in fact an unfair contract term.
And yes I agree with all the wibbling on here about following ebay's rules, that's definitely a good idea, but I don't think that negates the fact that the £200 charge is wrong.
Bert
Despite where sentiment looks like it's going here, I think ebay are wrong in trying to charge you £200 as that isn't 10% of the sale price.
If I were you, I'd sit down and have a good read of what the terms and conditions say. If they say the charge is 10% of what the item sold for or similar wording, I'd be point that out again (as you have done) and stick firm.
I also think there may be merit in arguing that attempting to charge you 10% of an amount much larger than the wheels sold for (if that's the way their terms are written) is in fact an unfair contract term.
And yes I agree with all the wibbling on here about following ebay's rules, that's definitely a good idea, but I don't think that negates the fact that the £200 charge is wrong.
Bert
BertBert said:
OP, how did you end the listing? Did you mark the item as sold?
Despite where sentiment looks like it's going here, I think ebay are wrong in trying to charge you £200 as that isn't 10% of the sale price.
If I were you, I'd sit down and have a good read of what the terms and conditions say. If they say the charge is 10% of what the item sold for or similar wording, I'd be point that out again (as you have done) and stick firm.
I also think there may be merit in arguing that attempting to charge you 10% of an amount much larger than the wheels sold for (if that's the way their terms are written) is in fact an unfair contract term.
And yes I agree with all the wibbling on here about following ebay's rules, that's definitely a good idea, but I don't think that negates the fact that the £200 charge is wrong.
Bert
I ended the listing as item no longer available or words to that effect. I didn't mark the item as sold.Despite where sentiment looks like it's going here, I think ebay are wrong in trying to charge you £200 as that isn't 10% of the sale price.
If I were you, I'd sit down and have a good read of what the terms and conditions say. If they say the charge is 10% of what the item sold for or similar wording, I'd be point that out again (as you have done) and stick firm.
I also think there may be merit in arguing that attempting to charge you 10% of an amount much larger than the wheels sold for (if that's the way their terms are written) is in fact an unfair contract term.
And yes I agree with all the wibbling on here about following ebay's rules, that's definitely a good idea, but I don't think that negates the fact that the £200 charge is wrong.
Bert
As you suggest, I shall dig through their T&C's in a bit more detail.
Thanks
Marcellus said:
not much of a defence I'm afraid and the judge will say "prove it beyond reasonable doubt then".
Oh dear. Why do people spout such nonsense?Unless he/she is a complete loon, he/she will do nothing of the sort.
It will be a civil case for which the standard is on the balance of probabilities.
In the words of Baroness Hale:
"Consider the famous example of the animal seen in Regent’s Park.
If it is seen outside the zoo on a stretch of greensward regularly used for walking dogs, then of course it is more likely to be a dog than a lion.
If it is seen in the zoo next to the lions’ enclosure when the door is open, then it may well be more likely to be a lion than a dog."
Red Devil said:
Oh dear. Why do people spout such nonsense?
Unless he/she is a complete loon, he/she will do nothing of the sort.
It will be a civil case for which the standard is on the balance of probabilities.
In the words of Baroness Hale:
"Consider the famous example of the animal seen in Regent’s Park.
If it is seen outside the zoo on a stretch of greensward regularly used for walking dogs, then of course it is more likely to be a dog than a lion.
If it is seen in the zoo next to the lions’ enclosure when the door is open, then it may well be more likely to be a lion than a dog."
Interesting example. However, given that logic - if the seller himself enters a value of £2000 it hardly seems more likely that he sold them for £180.Unless he/she is a complete loon, he/she will do nothing of the sort.
It will be a civil case for which the standard is on the balance of probabilities.
In the words of Baroness Hale:
"Consider the famous example of the animal seen in Regent’s Park.
If it is seen outside the zoo on a stretch of greensward regularly used for walking dogs, then of course it is more likely to be a dog than a lion.
If it is seen in the zoo next to the lions’ enclosure when the door is open, then it may well be more likely to be a lion than a dog."
I had a phone call at 9.30 one evening from Ebay to give me a telling off , I saw a trim piece for a Jaguar on ebay , the photos weren't great so I arranged to view the item in person prior to bidding as it was close to Heathrow and I was dropping the wife off there, as expected when i checked it over there were tabs broken on the back meaning about 50% of the fixing points were broken and it was useless
So got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
So got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
If it did get to court I doubt it will be much of a problem to prove that the item as advertised was only worth £200, and the how the OP was clueless and hiked the price to prevent an immediate sale.
Presumably what happens is that eBay spotted behaviour which contravened their rules and presumably the rules say that contact outside of ebay will trigger the normal FVF fee regardless of whether you sold it (since they have no idea).
Their bill was obviously based on the price when the item was finally removed, so in theory explaining that error should reduce it to the £20 which should have been paid (if you accept that the £1 offer isn't valid if you break the rules).
Presumably what happens is that eBay spotted behaviour which contravened their rules and presumably the rules say that contact outside of ebay will trigger the normal FVF fee regardless of whether you sold it (since they have no idea).
Their bill was obviously based on the price when the item was finally removed, so in theory explaining that error should reduce it to the £20 which should have been paid (if you accept that the £1 offer isn't valid if you break the rules).
liner33 said:
I had a phone call at 9.30 one evening from Ebay to give me a telling off , I saw a trim piece for a Jaguar on ebay , the photos weren't great so I arranged to view the item in person prior to bidding as it was close to Heathrow and I was dropping the wife off there, as expected when i checked it over there were tabs broken on the back meaning about 50% of the fixing points were broken and it was useless
So got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
That sounds like bullsSo got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
t.Thesprucegoose said:
liner33 said:
I had a phone call at 9.30 one evening from Ebay to give me a telling off , I saw a trim piece for a Jaguar on ebay , the photos weren't great so I arranged to view the item in person prior to bidding as it was close to Heathrow and I was dropping the wife off there, as expected when i checked it over there were tabs broken on the back meaning about 50% of the fixing points were broken and it was useless
So got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
That sounds like bullsSo got home, took the item out of my watch list and forgot about it
Few days later Ebay told me I had broken the T&C's buy contacting a member to view the item , they wanted me to bid , then pay for it , then collect it (seller wouldn't post) then if I wasn't happy I could apply for a refund
Ahhh no thanks , so stopped using it as much as possible , now use Amazon instead if I can
t.In any case, it's interesting that this thread has come up though as i've seen a few people on other forums saying that they still regularly advertise on eBay then pull items once sold and don't reckon they'll get any comeback. This thread would suggest otherwise, especially if it's a larger amount of £££.
Personally since eBay changed the T&C's and made it clear messages would be monitored for trading outside eBay / withdrawing items as "no longer for sale" or "damaged" when they've actually sold, etc, i've still listed the odd item but refuse to trade outside eBay. I've made it clear in listings that any offers must be made via the offer option and anything purchased is to be paid for by Paypal if it's being posted, or cash on collection to avoid any issues.
That's what second ebay accounts are for. Drop the price to £1 & sell it to yourself. Sorted.
Also helps to have 2 Paypal accounts that way if they hold or debit money from 1 account, you can keep selling whilst the 'issue' is resolved without them taking funds from items you sell.
Also helps to have 2 Paypal accounts that way if they hold or debit money from 1 account, you can keep selling whilst the 'issue' is resolved without them taking funds from items you sell.
Edited by shep1001 on Wednesday 20th June 23:46
I got a message recently regarding an item I messaged the seller on discussing a price. We agreed a price, I collected and paid cash.
They sent me a message reminding me of the policy. I haven't heard from the seller.
This is why more and more ebay auctions contains a picture of the sellers contacts number.
Me? I just wait for the max £1 sellers fees
They sent me a message reminding me of the policy. I haven't heard from the seller.
This is why more and more ebay auctions contains a picture of the sellers contacts number.
Me? I just wait for the max £1 sellers fees
Sir Bagalot said:
shep1001 said:
Also helps to have 2 Paypal accounts that way if they hold or debit money from 1 account, you can keep selling whilst the 'issue' is resolved without them taking funds from items you sell.
Do you know how difficult that is? And who owns Paypal......davek_964 said:
Interesting example. However, given that logic - if the seller himself enters a value of £2000 it hardly seems more likely that he sold them for £180.
I think you've missed the point. A £200 set of wheels is a £200 set of wheels. They didn't suddenly become diamond encrusted on the click of an eBay button.
Marcellus said:
and therein lies the OPs issue... let's assume this does go to court.. the OPs defence will be; "I know the terms about not selling outside of ebay, but I sort of did and to try and fudge the system I changed the price to £2k and then ticked the box to say I sold it at that price but really only sold it at £180"
not much of a defence I'm afraid and the judge will say "prove it beyond reasonable doubt then".
The counterpoint I suppose is that assuming his auction qualified for the "Max £1 FVF" offer, the suggestion would be that he went to the trouble of completing a sale offline to defraud eBay out of £1.not much of a defence I'm afraid and the judge will say "prove it beyond reasonable doubt then".
eBay can't force you to be paid via PayPal, but that can (and do) force you to accept it as a payment method. Most buyers will obviously have a preference for it due to the protection and convenience offered, and eBay know that of course.
OP has made a huge mess of this but the logic of setting a very high BIN price to let the auction just expire isn't unrealistic. Marking it as sold is the dumb part, as eBay will take that to mean that it sold on the site and seller received payment offline (cash, etc).
Unwinding all of that is the tricky part given its got as far as debt collectors.
Edited by Durzel on Thursday 21st June 08:07
Surely the most important part of this is the "Max £1" selling fee. If this applies, it really doesn't matter whether he sold them for £180, £200, £2000 or £2m, the selling fee is still only £1, this is the only loss ebay have incurred and he's offered to pay it. Chasing 10% of anything is surely punitive.
I had the same soon after they changed their Terms regarding this. Sold a wheel for cash on collection, marked it as sold and dispatched and then got told off for sharing contact information (actually the location to meet the bloke). I offered to pay the £1, they didn't want it just reminded me of my responsibilities. Which, frankly, are a bit daft.
Cheers, Jim
I had the same soon after they changed their Terms regarding this. Sold a wheel for cash on collection, marked it as sold and dispatched and then got told off for sharing contact information (actually the location to meet the bloke). I offered to pay the £1, they didn't want it just reminded me of my responsibilities. Which, frankly, are a bit daft.
Cheers, Jim
jimmy the hat said:
Surely the most important part of this is the "Max £1" selling fee. If this applies, it really doesn't matter whether he sold them for £180, £200, £2000 or £2m, the selling fee is still only £1, this is the only loss ebay have incurred and he's offered to pay it. Chasing 10% of anything is surely punitive.
I had the same soon after they changed their Terms regarding this. Sold a wheel for cash on collection, marked it as sold and dispatched and then got told off for sharing contact information (actually the location to meet the bloke). I offered to pay the £1, they didn't want it just reminded me of my responsibilities. Which, frankly, are a bit daft.
Cheers, Jim
The devil is in the detail though.I had the same soon after they changed their Terms regarding this. Sold a wheel for cash on collection, marked it as sold and dispatched and then got told off for sharing contact information (actually the location to meet the bloke). I offered to pay the £1, they didn't want it just reminded me of my responsibilities. Which, frankly, are a bit daft.
Cheers, Jim
If they've charged him £200, that implies either the auction didn't qualify for the £1 Final Value Fee, the offer wasn't activated (you have to explicitly take up the offer - it's not always open to everyone), or the terms of the offer weren't met in some way.
I agree that in some cases it is stupid that you can't share contact details in advance of the auction finishing. eBay expects you to bid on things using only the photos as a guide, and then if something isn't right when you go to collect it that you have to mutally agree not to proceed with the sale.
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