Fraudulant Card Payment
Discussion
DannyScene said:
I've emailed HR yet again to try and obtain this however I'm not holding out much hope as I have previously been told by one HR advisor I don't have a contract on file
While your contract is the one that matters (and I suspect they have to prove that one was provided to you, rather than just dragging up any old document), it could be instructive to ask your colleagues about their contract terms re withholding pay. Assuming they have them...Going to be frank here:
There is a lot of good advice in the thread, all of it relies upon you taking note of it.
Be firm, be direct, be accurate - do not back down.
Get everything in writing from the company and talk direct to HR as mentioned many times above.
If you won't stand up and fight your corner, who will?
There is a lot of good advice in the thread, all of it relies upon you taking note of it.
Be firm, be direct, be accurate - do not back down.
Get everything in writing from the company and talk direct to HR as mentioned many times above.
If you won't stand up and fight your corner, who will?
if you are taking payments over the phone and allowing a third party to collect the goods, then you will probably be in breach of your agreement with the credit card machine suppliers
its a well known scam where people use recently cloned/stolen card that are still 'fresh' and order a few hundred quids worth of stuff, then get a third party (sometimes a dodgy local courier company) in to collect the stuff - the real owner of the card just does a claw back at the end of the month when they realise that they have been done
if your employers have told their staff to do this then they are in the wrong - you should only ever ship stuff to an address if you are keying the card number into the PDQ machine, or charge/swipe the card which is presented to you as a physical card at the point of purchase in the shop
if you as a member of staff are doing this third party collection thing as a quick and easy way to process sales, well, its your fault im afraid
its a well known scam where people use recently cloned/stolen card that are still 'fresh' and order a few hundred quids worth of stuff, then get a third party (sometimes a dodgy local courier company) in to collect the stuff - the real owner of the card just does a claw back at the end of the month when they realise that they have been done
if your employers have told their staff to do this then they are in the wrong - you should only ever ship stuff to an address if you are keying the card number into the PDQ machine, or charge/swipe the card which is presented to you as a physical card at the point of purchase in the shop
if you as a member of staff are doing this third party collection thing as a quick and easy way to process sales, well, its your fault im afraid
DannyScene said:
So apparently if I refuse to sign the permission doc saying they can take the funds across the 3 months they will just take it in full
Starting to get really stressed out about this now
Don't. It's a lot of money, but as other posters have said, you should have them bang to rights. This feels a bit like scare tactics to get you to sign the slip.Starting to get really stressed out about this now
Reiterate (and present in writing) that you do not give them permission. Speak to an employment lawyer, ACAS and CAB.
In my industry we can have losses deducted from wages, but we're very niche and exempt from sizable portions of employment legislation - your emploer will not be!
DannyScene said:
So apparently if I refuse to sign the permission doc saying they can take the funds across the 3 months they will just take it in full
Starting to get really stressed out about this now
Think about it. Why would you need to sign a permission doc if it’s in your contract of employment? They’d just do it.Starting to get really stressed out about this now
The fact they’re being tardy about sending you your contract says to me they know it doesn’t include any term that lets them do it.
It looks to me like you’re being pressured by a manager who needs to cover the debt somehow - or look bad in the eyes of senior management - the lack of training you’ve received in how to process card payments is their failing, not yours.
Is any of this in writing, in stuff you’ve been allowed to take away?
Have you asked any of your colleagues who might have a similar contract to you to check whether they have a contact, and if so, what it says?
guru_1071 said:
if you as a member of staff are doing this third party collection thing as a quick and easy way to process sales, well, its your fault im afraid
That depends entirely on what training he's had, what procedures he's been given to follow, and what instructions he's been given by management....and even with proper training and clear procedures in place you can't just deduct pay without contractual agreement.
guru_1071 said:
if you are taking payments over the phone and allowing a third party to collect the goods, then you will probably be in breach of your agreement with the credit card machine suppliers
its a well known scam where people use recently cloned/stolen card that are still 'fresh' and order a few hundred quids worth of stuff, then get a third party (sometimes a dodgy local courier company) in to collect the stuff - the real owner of the card just does a claw back at the end of the month when they realise that they have been done
if your employers have told their staff to do this then they are in the wrong - you should only ever ship stuff to an address if you are keying the card number into the PDQ machine, or charge/swipe the card which is presented to you as a physical card at the point of purchase in the shop
if you as a member of staff are doing this third party collection thing as a quick and easy way to process sales, well, its your fault im afraid
I've in no way benefited from this and certainly wasn't doing it to achieve salesits a well known scam where people use recently cloned/stolen card that are still 'fresh' and order a few hundred quids worth of stuff, then get a third party (sometimes a dodgy local courier company) in to collect the stuff - the real owner of the card just does a claw back at the end of the month when they realise that they have been done
if your employers have told their staff to do this then they are in the wrong - you should only ever ship stuff to an address if you are keying the card number into the PDQ machine, or charge/swipe the card which is presented to you as a physical card at the point of purchase in the shop
if you as a member of staff are doing this third party collection thing as a quick and easy way to process sales, well, its your fault im afraid
Anyone one of 6 employees could've answered the call and each one have agreed they would've taken the payment as I did, just s
t luck it was me it seemsI've said to work if they can show me where it says I'm not to take card payments or something proving I am liable I'll pay it no issue
It's the fact none of this info is forth coming and everything seems to be written on napkins so to speak
Seems quite bold that a company of that size are going after an employee for such a small (in the scheme of things) mistake.
Is it year end or something like that? Will £400 or so really affect the stores bottom line? Unlikely. That's the only angle I can think of here, any kind of shortfall like this is met from the stores profit margin, maybe affecting bonus schemes etc?
Without clauses in your contract, written policy on such matters and specific training on how to deal with these issues they surely don't have a leg to stand on. If you're not sufficiently trained or equipped to deal with fraud prevention of this nature how can they expect to enforce it on you.
I know it's your job but you really need to take this up from every angle you can.
Is it year end or something like that? Will £400 or so really affect the stores bottom line? Unlikely. That's the only angle I can think of here, any kind of shortfall like this is met from the stores profit margin, maybe affecting bonus schemes etc?
Without clauses in your contract, written policy on such matters and specific training on how to deal with these issues they surely don't have a leg to stand on. If you're not sufficiently trained or equipped to deal with fraud prevention of this nature how can they expect to enforce it on you.
I know it's your job but you really need to take this up from every angle you can.
Whatever happens, as mentioned above, the loss to the company is not the full amount being requested from you.
They will not have to pay the VAT (I think) and they shouldn't be making profit out of you! So the amount being requested should be the cost price to them only.
Suggested course of action (all mentioned above!)
Things you should do:
1. Ask a colleague for a copy of their employment contract to check for a clause over taking fraudulent card payments
2. Check employee handbook for procedure for taking card payments
3. If no employee handbook, is there any other written documentation/guidance concerning taking card payments
4. Was any formal training given regarding taking card payments over the phone?
5. Has any guidance been given to the front line regarding changes to card payment policy since this incident?
Give us the above answers and I'm sure someone here with a legal brain can draft you a letter to send to HR.
I know you are probably under a lot of pressure and scared about losing your job, but you should be well protected in this case I reckon, so don't give in.
They will not have to pay the VAT (I think) and they shouldn't be making profit out of you! So the amount being requested should be the cost price to them only.
Suggested course of action (all mentioned above!)
Things you should do:
1. Ask a colleague for a copy of their employment contract to check for a clause over taking fraudulent card payments
2. Check employee handbook for procedure for taking card payments
3. If no employee handbook, is there any other written documentation/guidance concerning taking card payments
4. Was any formal training given regarding taking card payments over the phone?
5. Has any guidance been given to the front line regarding changes to card payment policy since this incident?
Give us the above answers and I'm sure someone here with a legal brain can draft you a letter to send to HR.
I know you are probably under a lot of pressure and scared about losing your job, but you should be well protected in this case I reckon, so don't give in.
DannyScene said:
So apparently if I refuse to sign the permission doc saying they can take the funds across the 3 months they will just take it in full
Starting to get really stressed out about this now
I would not be signing that, it’s just bully tactics. Starting to get really stressed out about this now
Op please please speak to ACAS or an employment lawyer ASAP. Your employer is almost certainly acting illegally. But, do look at your colleagues contracts.
Agree with most of the sentiment here. OP, your inactivity is causing your stress. To avoid this, you need to:
1. Get legal advice and a letter drafted
2. Get your notice handed in, and move on
I couldn't imagine a world where I'd want to work for someone so nasty and vindictive. Last month one of my team made an error which cost the company $11k. We did a full post-mortem, we worked out where we could improve process, and we all moved on with our lives. I can assure you that even though we are a very successful company in our own right, we don't have anything like the turnover of the business in question here.
If your company gave even half a sh*t about you as an employee, you wouldn't be in this situation.
1. Get legal advice and a letter drafted
2. Get your notice handed in, and move on
I couldn't imagine a world where I'd want to work for someone so nasty and vindictive. Last month one of my team made an error which cost the company $11k. We did a full post-mortem, we worked out where we could improve process, and we all moved on with our lives. I can assure you that even though we are a very successful company in our own right, we don't have anything like the turnover of the business in question here.
If your company gave even half a sh*t about you as an employee, you wouldn't be in this situation.
I posted this earlier, but it is now time for you to act on it OP
Your current employer is treating you badly and you need help to deal with it. In due course you will likely be leaving for a better place of work, but in the meantime, you need to make sure you aren't bullied out of money etc.
"OP, I see from your profile that you are in Leeds
I don't think it would do you any harm to speak with an Emplyoment Lawyer - an initial consultation should be enough to get things rolling and convince you that the employer is in the wrong here
A local one that seems well regarded (winner of recent Employment Law awards etc.) is Morrish
https://www.morrishsolicitors.com/client-services/...
There are others"
Your current employer is treating you badly and you need help to deal with it. In due course you will likely be leaving for a better place of work, but in the meantime, you need to make sure you aren't bullied out of money etc.
"OP, I see from your profile that you are in Leeds
I don't think it would do you any harm to speak with an Emplyoment Lawyer - an initial consultation should be enough to get things rolling and convince you that the employer is in the wrong here
A local one that seems well regarded (winner of recent Employment Law awards etc.) is Morrish
https://www.morrishsolicitors.com/client-services/...
There are others"
wibble cb said:
Biggest monetary loss/screw up I was involved in at work was about $300,000 once the final tally was taken.Thankfully, the company did a thorough investigation and determined that there were lessons to be learned in many areas, so no further action was taken, glad this worked out for you!
I did something stupid years ago that cost the company I worked for £36k. I was aka “Brewster” from Brewsters Millions from that day on.A little $ - € whoopsie...
Really sorry to hear this OP. Not entirely the same as your situation but slightly relevant.
My mum used to work for a supermarket that blacks about its market layout, in non food. One of her main jobs was newspapers. She was allowed and paid to take some of the paperwork home for the returns side of things.
On one occasion one of the free leaflets advertising stuff in a fishing magazine (my mum has no interest in fishing) got mixed up with her paperwork. As she was leaving the store with the paperwork she was subject to a standard security search who found the leaflet. They sacked her the next day for theft. She had worked for Morrison’s for 20 years and was the area rep.
She politely pointed out that a check of cctv would show it was an error of paperwork getting mixed up. Her store manager was about of a and wouldn’t entertain it. Being the union rep she contacted a fellow rep in a different region.
Needless to say it ended up going to an employment tribunal. In the end my mum was only 14 months away from retiring. They offered to pay her the 14 months salary and pension contributions if she drop the case about an hour before the case was due to be heard.
She always said if you know the rules. Stick to the law and procedures and know your in the right they would fold. Turns out she was right.
OP, if you know your right and the law is on your side you just have to decide how much you want that particular job. Is it worth the hassle. Invariably even if you win. You might end up alienating your bosses to the point they will just make working there intolerable.
I would be looking for a new job ASAP.
I’m assuming you work front of counter in a sales environment and do stock/warehouse type stuff perhaps. These skills must transfer to many different jobs out there.
Either way best of luck.
My mum used to work for a supermarket that blacks about its market layout, in non food. One of her main jobs was newspapers. She was allowed and paid to take some of the paperwork home for the returns side of things.
On one occasion one of the free leaflets advertising stuff in a fishing magazine (my mum has no interest in fishing) got mixed up with her paperwork. As she was leaving the store with the paperwork she was subject to a standard security search who found the leaflet. They sacked her the next day for theft. She had worked for Morrison’s for 20 years and was the area rep.
She politely pointed out that a check of cctv would show it was an error of paperwork getting mixed up. Her store manager was about of a
and wouldn’t entertain it. Being the union rep she contacted a fellow rep in a different region. Needless to say it ended up going to an employment tribunal. In the end my mum was only 14 months away from retiring. They offered to pay her the 14 months salary and pension contributions if she drop the case about an hour before the case was due to be heard.
She always said if you know the rules. Stick to the law and procedures and know your in the right they would fold. Turns out she was right.
OP, if you know your right and the law is on your side you just have to decide how much you want that particular job. Is it worth the hassle. Invariably even if you win. You might end up alienating your bosses to the point they will just make working there intolerable.
I would be looking for a new job ASAP.
I’m assuming you work front of counter in a sales environment and do stock/warehouse type stuff perhaps. These skills must transfer to many different jobs out there.
Either way best of luck.
OP
I would wait until they have deducted the money from your wages.
If they do then make a formal internal complaint.
If you want to make things harder for them then depending on what's been said to you and how you may be able to make a complaint of harassment/bullying as well for continuing to demand monies from you and abuse their position over you although this may mean you having to leave the employ.
Clearly things can go from bad to worse pretty quickly. How long have you worked there?
If you went to a tribunal then you may be able to argue breach of contract, perhaps also for constructive dismissal if you decide you can no longer work there as trust has gone when they illegally take money from you together with the harassment side.
Let them act first then you can react and go from there with ACAS/solicitors. It may still be all bluff.
I would wait until they have deducted the money from your wages.
If they do then make a formal internal complaint.
If you want to make things harder for them then depending on what's been said to you and how you may be able to make a complaint of harassment/bullying as well for continuing to demand monies from you and abuse their position over you although this may mean you having to leave the employ.
Clearly things can go from bad to worse pretty quickly. How long have you worked there?
If you went to a tribunal then you may be able to argue breach of contract, perhaps also for constructive dismissal if you decide you can no longer work there as trust has gone when they illegally take money from you together with the harassment side.
Let them act first then you can react and go from there with ACAS/solicitors. It may still be all bluff.
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 11th September 12:02
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