Are Smart Motorways Dangerous?
Discussion
ghe13rte said:
wack said:
I've driven well over 2 million miles in the last 28 years, I've never seen a single stationary vehicle in lane 2-3-4, even with a puncture vehicles usually have enough momentum to get to the hard shoulder...
While that is a lot of miles it doesn’t make it a statistical certainty that vehicles will not break down and stop in lanes 2, 3 or 4. It simply means they do and you haven’t seen one.I have also known of people being killed on the hard shoulder simply because they had ran out of fuel, had a flat tyre etc etc usually hit by a drifting truck.
So what are you trying to prove ?
I have gone on day trips over 300 miles across several counties from Cheshire to Cumbria and never seen a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder. That's a lot of wasted capacity?
Remove the hard shoulder and you remove a lot of unnecessary stops, ie eating donuts, tacho breaks, checking a map, answering a phone, sex, having a dump etc etc.
speedyguy said:
I have gone on day trips over 300 miles across several counties from Cheshire to Cumbria and never seen a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder. That's a lot of wasted capacity?
Remove the hard shoulder and you remove a lot of unnecessary stops, ie eating donuts, tacho breaks, checking a map, answering a phone, sex, having a dump etc etc.
On the contrary, I can't remember the last time I've taken a motorway journey and not passed someone on the hard shoulder; In some cases due to a visible emergency such as shredded tyres / bonnet up, others stopped for one of the reasons mentioned above.Remove the hard shoulder and you remove a lot of unnecessary stops, ie eating donuts, tacho breaks, checking a map, answering a phone, sex, having a dump etc etc.
One that comes to mind is a gleaming white Rolls Royce which wafted past - About 3 minutes later, I passed it on the hard shoulder with the driver making a tentative exit. A few minutes later, It was again wafting past in lane 3. - Not sure what was going on there
What would be nice is a greater provision of small rest areas; Off -road parking such as that seen on autoroutes / autobahns, without the full services - Just a quick off / on ramp and parking area, but fully seperated from the carrigeway, ususally by means of a tree line, giving somewhere for brief stops / trucks to park, and would perhaps make a good addition to smart motorways as somewhere you can pull in to check minor issues without there being a hard shoulder.
Haltamer said:
speedyguy said:
I have gone on day trips over 300 miles across several counties from Cheshire to Cumbria and never seen a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder. That's a lot of wasted capacity?
Remove the hard shoulder and you remove a lot of unnecessary stops, ie eating donuts, tacho breaks, checking a map, answering a phone, sex, having a dump etc etc.
On the contrary, I can't remember the last time I've taken a motorway journey and not passed someone on the hard shoulder; In some cases due to a visible emergency such as shredded tyres / bonnet up, others stopped for one of the reasons mentioned above.Remove the hard shoulder and you remove a lot of unnecessary stops, ie eating donuts, tacho breaks, checking a map, answering a phone, sex, having a dump etc etc.
One that comes to mind is a gleaming white Rolls Royce which wafted past - About 3 minutes later, I passed it on the hard shoulder with the driver making a tentative exit. A few minutes later, It was again wafting past in lane 3. - Not sure what was going on there
What would be nice is a greater provision of small rest areas; Off -road parking such as that seen on autoroutes / autobahns, without the full services - Just a quick off / on ramp and parking area, but fully seperated from the carrigeway, ususally by means of a tree line, giving somewhere for brief stops / trucks to park, and would perhaps make a good addition to smart motorways as somewhere you can pull in to check minor issues without there being a hard shoulder.
k are our lot playing at?????????Haltamer said:
What would be nice is a greater provision of small rest areas; Off -road parking such as that seen on autoroutes / autobahns, without the full services - Just a quick off / on ramp and parking area, but fully seperated from the carrigeway, ususally by means of a tree line, giving somewhere for brief stops / trucks to park, and would perhaps make a good addition to smart motorways as somewhere you can pull in to check minor issues without there being a hard shoulder.
That's massively unlikely to happen. I was sat in meetings discussing "rest areas" on the newly defined "expressways" concept coming to your roads soon (but that's a whole new subject if someone wants to start a new thread) and I bet they don't have hard shoulders either. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/highway...
The decision was taken over 25 years ago that the private sector will provide "rest areas" etc if they are not financially viable you won't see them. The present ones that are generally disappearing are thought to be a thorn in the side due to the maintenance requirements and nefarious activities that go on within them.
Maybe if/when we get Toll roads like abroad they will be funded that way or pay for toilet use as another income stream similar to other other countries.
Presently there is nothing to stop local authorities providing those facilities like aires (you know the 'cash strapped ones that can't keep a public toilet open on the high street).
Anyway that's a whole different subject
Sgt Bilko said:
Motorways with hard shoulders are actually twice as dangerous than those without. Look, two people died in this crash on one:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-455...
Ban all hard shoulders I say.
Inattentive drivers will always be inattentive. Whether it's drifting into someone on the hard shoulder, or lane two or three, four, etc, or it's ignoring red x's on gantries that shut lanes on roads with hard shoulder running.
Wacky Racer said:
Of course they are dangerous.
You are driving your car with your wife and three very young children in the back, your engine goes bang/you have a blowout/run out of petrol, you have no hard shoulder to pull onto with HGV's thundering up behind you at 50mph.
Only a matter of time before there is going to be a terrible disaster resulting in massive loss of life.
If HGVs are going at 50mph on a motorway there's something wrong with them. And while we're at it, it's the HGVs that should be banned anyway - causing terrible disasters seems to be their forte:You are driving your car with your wife and three very young children in the back, your engine goes bang/you have a blowout/run out of petrol, you have no hard shoulder to pull onto with HGV's thundering up behind you at 50mph.
Only a matter of time before there is going to be a terrible disaster resulting in massive loss of life.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43320649
Maybe it would have been better if there was a hard...oh, hang on, there was.
wack said:
I've driven well over 2 million miles in the last 28 years, I've never seen a single stationary vehicle in lane 2-3-4, even with a puncture vehicles usually have enough momentum to get to the hard shoulder
There is absolutely no evidence yet that "smart motorways" are more dangerous than dumb ones. What your cousin's sister's brother saw when he was a travelling carpet salesman doing 20 million miles a year is irrelevant.I'm sorry to come over like I've LotsOfSmallOldCitroens but it looks like some of you have come over all Daily Mail!
echazfraz said:
And while we're at it, it's the HGVs that should be banned anyway - causing terrible disasters seems to be their forte:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43320649
Until the shops are empty or will we rescind it before then?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43320649
All those who print stupidity on this topic are those who spout that it has not been proven that smart motorways are more dangerous than those with hard shoulders have no perception whatsoever and no experience at all compared to all drivers who know full well that there will be deaths that would have been avoided if there were some refuge to drive onto in an emergency.........
These thick heads who do not have an ounce of cocum drive new or nearly new cars which may well not stop abruptly. They most certainly are not engineers either or recovery experts who are experienced in the knowledge that any car that has 80.000 miles on the clock might stop dead on any road. If that disaster happens on a smart motorway the passengers may well end up like their car =dead.
These thick heads who do not have an ounce of cocum drive new or nearly new cars which may well not stop abruptly. They most certainly are not engineers either or recovery experts who are experienced in the knowledge that any car that has 80.000 miles on the clock might stop dead on any road. If that disaster happens on a smart motorway the passengers may well end up like their car =dead.
BertBert said:
The question is whether a greater standard deviation in speed is in some way safer than everyone going along at 70mph plus or minus a little bit?
I think that is significant. They effect of speed limits generally is to cause platooning. The law-abiding driver causes traffic behind to close-up. The tendency then is for headways to become less that the accepted standard of 2-seconds = 1800 vehicles per lane.Without smart motorways Lane 3 tends to have severe problems, often coming to a complete halt, with massive consequences in poor weather.
There is no other magical solution, the extra Motorway capacity, that the country desperately needs, is never going to be constructed. The only safe answer is to be relaxed, vigilant and maintain your gaps.
Mick50NCD said:
All those who print stupidity on this topic are those who spout that it has not been proven that smart motorways are more dangerous than those with hard shoulders have no perception whatsoever and no experience at all compared to all drivers who know full well that there will be deaths that would have been avoided if there were some refuge to drive onto in an emergency.........
These thick heads who do not have an ounce of cocum drive new or nearly new cars which may well not stop abruptly. They most certainly are not engineers either or recovery experts who are experienced in the knowledge that any car that has 80.000 miles on the clock might stop dead on any road. If that disaster happens on a smart motorway the passengers may well end up like their car =dead.
Smart motorways are dangerous, just as non-smart motorways are dangerous. There's not enough data to tell whether one is more dangerous than the other.These thick heads who do not have an ounce of cocum drive new or nearly new cars which may well not stop abruptly. They most certainly are not engineers either or recovery experts who are experienced in the knowledge that any car that has 80.000 miles on the clock might stop dead on any road. If that disaster happens on a smart motorway the passengers may well end up like their car =dead.
It seems like a smart motorway should be more dangerous than a non-smart one, and those who experience day-in, day-out of their working lives may anecdotally think this, but data is needed.
To denigrate swathes of engineers, many of whom spend their whole working lives trying to make the roads a safer place, like you just have would be like me saying that recovery drivers who can't spell or space paragraphs properly are thick as s
te and should keep their stupid opinions to themselves. So I won't do that.Only a matter of time before a serious serious accident happens.
I travel the full length of the M3. The smart section is definitely unsafe. At least twice a week a lane is closed due to broken down vehicle.
I was in lane 2 late at night raining quite heavy with a lorry ahead in lane 1. All of a sudden he swerved into my lane I braked hard and realised he was avoiding a breakdown.
Even today a breakdown happened lane 1 from M3 to M25 the most dangerous and busiest section. I have seen 5 big crashes at that junction.
And don’t get started on the fact the drains have been collapsing in lane 1. Lane 1 closed for emergency repairs this week.
I could go on and on. From the end of the smart section to Winchester usually runs quite smoothly often see a car on the hard shoulder but that’s no biggy out of free moving traffic no speed reduction needed.
It’s been a massive waste of money and time.
I travel the full length of the M3. The smart section is definitely unsafe. At least twice a week a lane is closed due to broken down vehicle.
I was in lane 2 late at night raining quite heavy with a lorry ahead in lane 1. All of a sudden he swerved into my lane I braked hard and realised he was avoiding a breakdown.
Even today a breakdown happened lane 1 from M3 to M25 the most dangerous and busiest section. I have seen 5 big crashes at that junction.
And don’t get started on the fact the drains have been collapsing in lane 1. Lane 1 closed for emergency repairs this week.
I could go on and on. From the end of the smart section to Winchester usually runs quite smoothly often see a car on the hard shoulder but that’s no biggy out of free moving traffic no speed reduction needed.
It’s been a massive waste of money and time.
Aiminghigh123 said:
Only a matter of time before a serious serious accident happens.
Agree, just like the normal motorway. Unfortunately there are a lot of serious accidents on that, and other roads, too.Aiminghigh123 said:
I travel the full length of the M3. The smart section is definitely unsafe. At least twice a week a lane is closed due to broken down vehicle.
Sounds like it's working properly.Aiminghigh123 said:
I was in lane 2 late at night raining quite heavy with a lorry ahead in lane 1. All of a sudden he swerved into my lane I braked hard and realised he was avoiding a breakdown.
Sounds like he wasn't paying attentionAiminghigh123 said:
Even today a breakdown happened lane 1 from M3 to M25 the most dangerous and busiest section. I have seen 5 big crashes at that junction.
Because of the smart motorway? Or the dumb drivers?Aiminghigh123 said:
And don’t get started on the fact the drains have been collapsing in lane 1. Lane 1 closed for emergency repairs this week.
That does sound serious and if someone hasn't done their job, at some stage, and it's caused this then they should be held accountable.Aiminghigh123 said:
I could go on and on. From the end of the smart section to Winchester usually runs quite smoothly often see a car on the hard shoulder but that’s no biggy out of free moving traffic no speed reduction needed.
That sounds good.Aiminghigh123 said:
It’s been a massive waste of money and time.
TooMany2cvs said:
Sorry, let me get this straight here...
You're arguing that people doing the speed limit on the motorway is dangerous?
In a word, yes.You're arguing that people doing the speed limit on the motorway is dangerous?
Everyone doing the same speed alongside each other for mile after mile is far more dangerous than a 15 / 20 mph speed differential. Add in variable speed limits and dumb/bad drivers along with no hard shoulder and you have a real recipe for disaster.
The fixation on speed being the source of all evil is ridiculous, anyone with common sense can see that.
Prizam said:
Everyone doing the same speed alongside each other for mile after mile is far more dangerous than a 15 / 20 mph speed differential.
I'm turning into a stuck record - where is the evidence for this?Prizam said:
The fixation on speed being the source of all evil is ridiculous, anyone with common sense can see that.
I think that I agree with this - but does it not hold true that a 15/20 mph speed differential, when it goes wrong, is where an issue arises? If I'm doing 90mph and hit a car doing 70mph then we're both going to feel it. If we're doing less of a difference, 70 vs 75 maybe, then we'll feel it less.
There's an interesting question around relativity i.e. if we're all doing 70mph and you're in my blind spot, you'll stay in my blind spot and I may move into you if I'm not paying attention.
Again, it comes down to evidence I guess...
echazfraz said:
I think that I agree with this - but does it not hold true that a 15/20 mph speed differential, when it goes wrong, is where an issue arises?
If I'm doing 90mph and hit a car doing 70mph then we're both going to feel it. If we're doing less of a difference, 70 vs 75 maybe, then we'll feel it less.
There's an interesting question around relativity i.e. if we're all doing 70mph and you're in my blind spot, you'll stay in my blind spot and I may move into you if I'm not paying attention.
Again, it comes down to evidence I guess...
Perhaps there's an element of anxiety in people that would contribute towards this? This article from The Telegraph has some research from Virginia Tech from 3 years ago - take from it what you will: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-n...If I'm doing 90mph and hit a car doing 70mph then we're both going to feel it. If we're doing less of a difference, 70 vs 75 maybe, then we'll feel it less.
There's an interesting question around relativity i.e. if we're all doing 70mph and you're in my blind spot, you'll stay in my blind spot and I may move into you if I'm not paying attention.
Again, it comes down to evidence I guess...
I personally think speed camera anxiety is a thing - would love to see some statistics to see how often it either causes accidents or near misses compared to a decent control factor. There's also big vehicle beside little vehicle anxiety, spacial anxiety, etc, so I can see why people feel unsafe on smart motorways.
Personally, driving small, low to the ground cars, I quite like my space and not having to keep my eyes on the speedo as often. Not a speed demon but I can't help but constantly check in suspected speed camera zones. Added less space around me than on comparable A roads or non-smart motorways when speeds start slowing down, I personally don't feel as safe on the M25 for example, but I dare say that's more dumb drivers pulling off dumb s
t like weaving through non-gantry traffic at 80+mph to pull off at the exit slip at the last minute.Edited by mrciarano on Tuesday 11th June 15:27
mrciarano said:
Perhaps there's an element of anxiety in people that would contribute towards this? This article from The Telegraph has some research from Virginia Tech from 3 years ago - take from it what you will: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-n...
I personally think speed camera anxiety is a thing - would love to see some statistics to see how often it either causes accidents or near misses compared to a decent control factor. There's also big vehicle beside little vehicle anxiety, spacial anxiety, etc, so I can see why people feel unsafe on smart motorways.
Really interesting, cheers, train home reading sorted.I personally think speed camera anxiety is a thing - would love to see some statistics to see how often it either causes accidents or near misses compared to a decent control factor. There's also big vehicle beside little vehicle anxiety, spacial anxiety, etc, so I can see why people feel unsafe on smart motorways.
I agree that there are huge issues with smart motorways (or cameras) around perceived risk and actual risk and if the former can in fact become the latter because it becomes such a focus.
echazfraz said:
Prizam said:
Everyone doing the same speed alongside each other for mile after mile is far more dangerous than a 15 / 20 mph speed differential.
I'm turning into a stuck record - where is the evidence for this?Ergo... on a 30mph road, passing a parked car at 30mph is the same as passing someone at 100mph on the motorway. Is a 30mph residential road more dangerous?
Yes... I know this is a vast oversimplification. arguments against my point include breaking distances, arguments for my point include everyone traveling in the same direction and a physical divide between the traveld direction.
What we can agree on is the distinct lack of scientific evidence provided by those who set arbitrary speed limitations. An awful lot of decisions around road safety and speed are taken by those not qualified to make such a decision, with little to no evidence to back any conclusions.
The drivers to reduce speed seem to be to appease the activist types who have had some one run over.
I remain of the mindset that strict, repeated driver training/testing, and not using your bloody phone remains by far the best ways of improving road safety and polution. By a country mile!
I’m all for the M42 that still has a hard shoulder until the traffic is heavy enough to open it up.
The M3 is all lanes all the time.
I still think all motorways should have a hard shoulder. Can have all the speed control.
Cameras? Well I personally don’t see the point just a money making scheme on the motorway. I would rather have cameras on traffic lights and definitely outside every school set to 20 mph.
The M3 is all lanes all the time.
I still think all motorways should have a hard shoulder. Can have all the speed control.
Cameras? Well I personally don’t see the point just a money making scheme on the motorway. I would rather have cameras on traffic lights and definitely outside every school set to 20 mph.
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