M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?

[jamei303]

Repel_Max said:

I dodn't say it was needed. I said it was one of the signs that could signal the end of a restriction.

You said "the speed limit stays in force until you pass another sign", which is not true.

[Repel_Max]

Heres Johnny said:

Repel_Max said:

I am familiar with every VSL in England, Wales and Scotland, none are 100s of miles long, they all have defined start and end points with the longest being a few 10s of miles. All of them have clear indications of speed limits and lane restrictions and all have clearly defined start and END points. All that is required now is for drivers, especially those who regard it as a passion or with pride, is to learn and accept the rules. Happy to help.

Edited by Repel_Max on Monday 11th February 09:49

You are wrong whether you like it or not as you are refusing to allow for mistakes which leads to ambiguity.

I will give you a case in point. As you know the roads incredibly well...

You're driving North on the M6 in the VSL area where the Toll road (which does not have VSL) and the M6 which does at that point. The M6 has a 60 posted but then due to a mistake or equipment failure fails to return to 70. The M6toll merges, which was a 70 limit.. whats the limit? (the end of the toll does have VSL but thats to match the main M6, and in this case its not illuminated, either because its failed or because the M6 had failed to signal a return to 70)

Whats the limit if the cancellation of a lower limit has failed to be posted and any junction after the last lower posted speed and where the motorist has joined? There is no way to determine the speed limit.

The road can be incorrectly signed, end of. There's no ifs and buts, it can happen even if by accident or failure.

I've seen another example which is quite laughable, in a VSL are where there are road works I've seen gantries displaying 40 with a road sign just after the gantry displaying 50. I'd love to see them try to enforce the 40 after the 50 sign.

You are now describing an abnormal situation with an equipment failure.
If someone has not passed a 60 sign then the speed limit applicable to them cannot be 60.
If a 60 sign fails on an enforcement gantry the speed limit will be 70mph so your chap on the M6Toll will be fine at 70.
If the chap on the M6 Toll joins the M6 after a 60 sign on the M6 then that enforcement system will not catch him at 60. To be detected by an enforcement camera on the motorway you will have passed a gantry with or without a speed limit sign, the speed camera on the gantry will therefore enforce the limit you have passed.
I am right and I think you remain confused.

[Repel_Max]

Heres Johnny said:

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

And that's my point - if the markings are unclear, its not correctly signed.

Without correct signage you can't know if you're in a VSL area, therefore it would be impossible to prosecute someone on the basis it was. Without correct signage the motorway is like any other motorway.

So you can't take the stance that the last speed limit seen lasts forever in a VSL without being able to demonstrate it is still a VSL, and if you can't demonstrate a VSL is a VSL then its is reasonable to believe it is a regular motorway.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 13:05

I am really finding it difficult to understand these questions. Do none of you look out of the window at the front when you are driving along?
This is what you will see when the VSL ends.

JUST LOOK THERE'S A FU**IN' SIGN

[ashleyman]

Repel_Max said:

You are now describing an abnormal situation with an equipment failure.
If someone has not passed a 60 sign then the speed limit applicable to them cannot be 60.
If a 60 sign fails on an enforcement gantry the speed limit will be 70mph so your chap on the M6Toll will be fine at 70.
If the chap on the M6 Toll joins the M6 after a 60 sign on the M6 then that enforcement system will not catch him at 60. To be detected by an enforcement camera on the motorway you will have passed a gantry with or without a speed limit sign, the speed camera on the gantry will therefore enforce the limit you have passed.
I am right and I think you remain confused.

If the gantry with the camera doesn't display a speed it is not enforceable.

If the gantry with the camera is faulty and displays multiple speeds it is not enforceable.

If you want to argue, speak to Beverly Spellman of Highways who says this:

If on a multi-lane carriageway one of the AMI signals shows blank then I believe NSL applies legally, though it would be safer to drive within the speed limit shown for the other lanes if lower, on the basis that the blank AMI signal was faulty.

There are built-in safe­guards which pre­vent the speed enforcement cam­era from acti­vat­ing if there is a crit­i­cal fault with the AMI sig­nal at that location. The sys­tem is designed to ensure that it will only cap­ture an offence when the equip­ment is work­ing cor­rectly.

[Repel_Max]

Andy S15 said:

There's enough discussion here to really show that there's too much ambiguity in this system and should really be clarified. The law should be easy to follow here, not convoluted. To be honest, before reading this thread I really thought this was a simple thing - no signs = NSL. When you check the government info, they literally state:

'If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.'

(https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smart-motorway#speed-limits)

The attached 'Smart Motorways Leaflet' on the same page also states:

'When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place and can be enforced by police'

And:

'All mandatory speed limits are enforced by police, as is the national speed limit of 70mph when no speeds are shown.'

There is no exploration into stretches of road with and without limits, purely the above. If it really is more complicated than this, then there needs to be further official clarification (not by people in this thread, by the gov!) especially as there is already a precedent that motorways have different speed limit rules to other roads in the country, regarding lamp post spacing for example.

When this information is handed out by the government it's not hard to see why motorists take any unlit sign, even if amongst other lit signs as back to NSL, as I will also continue to do.

It can't be simple if you haven't bothered to read the simple instructions. Read them and you will find how simple it is.
If you find somewhere that explains that a blank AMI or MS4 display after a previous one that had a restriction in the speed limit means the speed limit is NSL then post it up.
If you find one it will be from an unofficial source where someone like you has simply assumed what it means rather than found out form an official source what it does mean.

[jamei303]

ashleyman said:

If you want to argue, speak to Beverly Spellman of Highways who says this:

If on a multi-lane carriageway one of the AMI signals shows blank then I believe NSL applies legally, though it would be safer to drive within the speed limit shown for the other lanes if lower, on the basis that the blank AMI signal was faulty.

There are built-in safe­guards which pre­vent the speed enforcement cam­era from acti­vat­ing if there is a crit­i­cal fault with the AMI sig­nal at that location. The sys­tem is designed to ensure that it will only cap­ture an offence when the equip­ment is work­ing cor­rectly.

As she admits, she doesn't know what she is talking about. There is no provision in law for separate speed limits for different lanes of the same carriageway. A single speed limit sign above one lane of the carriageway applies to the whole carriageway.

[Repel_Max]

ashleyman said:

Repel_Max said:

You are now describing an abnormal situation with an equipment failure.
If someone has not passed a 60 sign then the speed limit applicable to them cannot be 60.
If a 60 sign fails on an enforcement gantry the speed limit will be 70mph so your chap on the M6Toll will be fine at 70.
If the chap on the M6 Toll joins the M6 after a 60 sign on the M6 then that enforcement system will not catch him at 60. To be detected by an enforcement camera on the motorway you will have passed a gantry with or without a speed limit sign, the speed camera on the gantry will therefore enforce the limit you have passed.
I am right and I think you remain confused.

If the gantry with the camera doesn't display a speed it is not enforceable.

No. NSL is enforceable with HADECS3, the only active gantry camera on UK motorways.

ashleyman said:

If the gantry with the camera is faulty and displays multiple speeds it is not enforceable.

No. NSL is enforceable in this fault situation. HADECS3 has been specially adapted to do exactly that.

ashleyman said:

If you want to argue, speak to Beverly Spellman of Highways who says this:

If on a multi-lane carriageway one of the AMI signals shows blank then I believe NSL applies legally, though it would be safer to drive within the speed limit shown for the other lanes if lower, on the basis that the blank AMI signal was faulty.

There are built-in safe­guards which pre­vent the speed enforcement cam­era from acti­vat­ing if there is a crit­i­cal fault with the AMI sig­nal at that location. The sys­tem is designed to ensure that it will only cap­ture an offence when the equip­ment is work­ing cor­rectly.

She "believes" that but unfortunately is quoting the situation for HADECS and HADECS2, not HADECS3.
I don't know who she is or on what date she said this but unfortunately she is not correct.

[Repel_Max]

vonhosen said:

Heres Johnny said:

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

And that's my point - if the markings are unclear, its not correctly signed.

Without correct signage you can't know if you're in a VSL area, therefore it would be impossible to prosecute someone on the basis it was. Without correct signage the motorway is like any other motorway.

So you can't take the stance that the last speed limit seen lasts forever in a VSL without being able to demonstrate it is still a VSL, and if you can't demonstrate a VSL is a VSL then its is reasonable to believe it is a regular motorway.

But although we make the choice about how fast we are going to travel the Court decides what the actual limit in place was at the time because they make a determination as to whether signage was adequate/correct (on an individual case by case basis).

It won't be hard for a court to decide on adequate guidance from signs because HADECS3 shows an image of the speed limit that the driver has just passed in the record made by the camera.
The signs are great big illuminated signs that you can't miss...even on the pictures from the speed camera.

[ashleyman]

Repel_Max said:

It won't be hard for a court to decide on adequate guidance from signs because HADECS3 shows an image of the speed limit that the driver has just passed in the record made by the camera.
The signs are great big illuminated signs that you can't miss...even on the pictures from the speed camera.

And what if the camera gantry is blank but the one before was showing 40.

The photos will show no speed, therefore the ticket will show no speed but the speed limit has been exceeded based on the previous gantry being 40 with no other signage in-between.

Unless the system also takes a photo of the previous gantry showing a 40 limit and includes it with the ticket there's no evidence to prove the limit was broken.

[Heres Johnny]

Repel_Max said:

Heres Johnny said:

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

Great - so now we have to consult to see if a stretch of road is named in a schedule and determine where it ends.

Only if the signage is unclear, but that's been the case with Traffic Regulation Orders since forever (e.g. what is an authorised bus? what local exclusions are there for an "except for access" sign? etc etc)

And that's my point - if the markings are unclear, its not correctly signed.

Without correct signage you can't know if you're in a VSL area, therefore it would be impossible to prosecute someone on the basis it was. Without correct signage the motorway is like any other motorway.

So you can't take the stance that the last speed limit seen lasts forever in a VSL without being able to demonstrate it is still a VSL, and if you can't demonstrate a VSL is a VSL then its is reasonable to believe it is a regular motorway.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 13:05

I am really finding it difficult to understand these questions. Do none of you look out of the window at the front when you are driving along?
This is what you will see when the VSL ends.

JUST LOOK THERE'S A FU**IN' SIGN

Isn't the point of the conversation when there ISNT a FU**IN' SIGN for whatever reason?

Just like there's no reason why a gantry would be unlit if it was meant to be use and if it wasn't there's likely to be a problem?

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 16:31

[thecremeegg]

Repel_Max said:

I am really finding it difficult to understand these questions. Do none of you look out of the window at the front when you are driving along?
This is what you will see when the VSL ends.

JUST LOOK THERE'S A FU**IN' SIGN

So you go through a sign that says 40 at the start of this VSL zone, you go past the scene of the accident or whatever and the gantries are then blank.
What you're saying is that you'd then travel at 40 for the next 10 miles until you see that sign?
Not going to happen - not our fault the monkeys at the control desk can't press the NSL button is it?

[Repel_Max]

thecremeegg said:

Repel_Max said:

I am really finding it difficult to understand these questions. Do none of you look out of the window at the front when you are driving along?
This is what you will see when the VSL ends.

JUST LOOK THERE'S A FU**IN' SIGN

So you go through a sign that says 40 at the start of this VSL zone, you go past the scene of the accident or whatever and the gantries are then blank.
What you're saying is that you'd then travel at 40 for the next 10 miles until you see that sign?
Not going to happen - not our fault the monkeys at the control desk can't press the NSL button is it?

The question was "where does the speed limit end" not "where would you speed up". If "the monkeys" as you term them, have not pressed the NSL button then the limit is 40. What speed you would choose and what the speed limit is are 2 different things. Maybe there is a good reason why the NSL button hasn't been pressed. How would you know? There is no requirement to tell drivers why the speed limit has been set or why the speed limit has returned to NSL, all drivers need to know is what the speed limit is. I have explained to you very clearly what the speed limit is, what I haven't done is agreed that when you think that the speed limit has been in place for sufficient distance you can choose what speed you think it should be and therefore ignore what it actually is.
Can you not see the difference?

[Repel_Max]

Heres Johnny said:

Isn't the point of the conversation when there ISNT a FU**IN' SIGN for whatever reason?

It is exactly that.

Heres Johnny said:

Just like there's no reason why a gantry would be unlit if it was meant to be use and if it wasn't there's likely to be a problem?

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 16:31

There is a reason why the gantry may be unlit. The reason is that it doesn't need to be lit to signal that the speed limit lit on the gantry before the unlit gantry remains in force past the unlit gantry...until you reach a gantry with another speed limit that is different to the first gantry, one of those limits may be NSL.
I really can't believe there are so many who can't follow the simple principle.
Those who will not acknowledge the simple rule are either those who have not bothered to read the rules or those who have but simply defy or deny them.
I think that the gantries that do not have a speed limit lit should be lit to avoid confusing the hard of understanding. That doesn't alter the traffic regulations though.
...And it doesn't alter the answer to the original question to which you refer.

[Heres Johnny]

Repel_Max said:

There is a reason why the gantry may be unlit. The reason is that it doesn't need to be lit to signal that the speed limit lit on the gantry before the unlit gantry remains in force past the unlit gantry...until you reach a gantry with another speed limit that is different to the first gantry, one of those limits may be NSL.
I really can't believe there are so many who can't follow the simple principle.
Those who will not acknowledge the simple rule are either those who have not bothered to read the rules or those who have but simply defy or deny them.
I think that the gantries that do not have a speed limit lit should be lit to avoid confusing the hard of understanding. That doesn't alter the traffic regulations though.
...And it doesn't alter the answer to the original question to which you refer.

That's not a reason otherwise you're effectively calling ever gantry that simply repeats the previous speed superfluous and anyone that would deem it appropriate to enable it with the same speed as the previous one bell ends for wasting electricity. But you seem to agree they should be lit, and they are lit, and the law may be written such that until a sign to the contrary means the speed limit stays in force but only on designated VSL areas and if there was no indication that a VSL had ended you're left in a state where its indeterminate what the speed limit should be and thats because the road is incorrectly signed. An overhead gantry is no more a sign its a VSL area as an unlit sigh means NSL applies.

So.. how far do you drive until you determine the NSL applies without signage? Part of fhe answer is "how far do you drive before you determine a VSL has ended in the absence of any signs?"

[BertBert]

And why is it not enforced?
Bert

[jamei303]

Heres Johnny said:

So.. how far do you drive until you determine the NSL applies without signage? Part of fhe answer is "how far do you drive before you determine a VSL has ended in the absence of any signs?"

Ask Siri/Google to read out the relevant part of the Schedule to the applicable Statutory Instrument

[Heres Johnny]

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

So.. how far do you drive until you determine the NSL applies without signage? Part of fhe answer is "how far do you drive before you determine a VSL has ended in the absence of any signs?"

Ask Siri/Google to read out the relevant part of the Schedule to the applicable Statutory Instrument

I’ll take that as you agree there isn’t an viable answer when roads are incorrectly signed

[Graveworm]

Repel_Max said:

The question was "where does the speed limit end" not "where would you speed up". If "the monkeys" as you term them, have not pressed the NSL button then the limit is 40.

Which I get, I understand that the speed limit and whether it is enforceable are not the same. But what if they had pressed the button but the fault meant that nothing was being shown what is the speed limit.

[ashleyman]

Heres Johnny said:

jamei303 said:

Heres Johnny said:

So.. how far do you drive until you determine the NSL applies without signage? Part of fhe answer is "how far do you drive before you determine a VSL has ended in the absence of any signs?"

Ask Siri/Google to read out the relevant part of the Schedule to the applicable Statutory Instrument

I’ll take that as you agree there isn’t an viable answer when roads are incorrectly signed

Can you imagine the trouble you'd get into if you whipped out the laptop and started trying to research what the speed limit was whilst driving down the motorway.

[pingu393]

Bert

If gantries approaching a junction are showing 50, but gantries after the junction are blank, traffic already on the motorway is limited to 50. I understand that.

What speed is new traffic joining the motorway limited to? I would say 70.

Is there, perhaps, a rule I don't know about that states that the speed limit resets to 70 after a junction unless posted limits are lower?