M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?
Discussion
Heres Johnny said:
I’ll take that as you agree there isn’t an viable answer when roads are incorrectly signed
They wouldnt be incorrectly signed according to the law though, because the law doesn’t require an END sign or repeaters. They might be incorrectly signed according to Highways England procedure or something, and you could try arguing that in court I suppose.
jamei303 said:
They wouldnt be incorrectly signed according to the law though, because the law doesn’t require an END sign or repeaters.
They might be incorrectly signed according to Highways England procedure or something, and you could try arguing that in court I suppose.
The law does require repeaters. Just not at set min distances any more.They might be incorrectly signed according to Highways England procedure or something, and you could try arguing that in court I suppose.
Bert
pingu393 said:
Bert
If gantries approaching a junction are showing 50, but gantries after the junction are blank, traffic already on the motorway is limited to 50. I understand that.
What speed is new traffic joining the motorway limited to? I would say 70.
Is there, perhaps, a rule I don't know about that states that the speed limit resets to 70 after a junction unless posted limits are lower?
Yes I agree, I too understand the theory. Limit starts, limit stays until NSL sign. My argument is that there is a point (of no repeaters) after which a prosecution would fail. I don't know when that is. After the first clear sign a mile up the road or after many clear signs 20 miles up the road. Thus if a prosecution would (#always#) fail, then the limit is not in force (that's where me and Ghertie disagree, but he's clearly wrong). The fact that drivers do not get prosecuted unless the sign on the gantry is on, suggests to me that it's closer to 1 blank sign that many over a 20 mile length.If gantries approaching a junction are showing 50, but gantries after the junction are blank, traffic already on the motorway is limited to 50. I understand that.
What speed is new traffic joining the motorway limited to? I would say 70.
Is there, perhaps, a rule I don't know about that states that the speed limit resets to 70 after a junction unless posted limits are lower?
Bert
jamei303 said:
Heres Johnny said:
I’ll take that as you agree there isn’t an viable answer when roads are incorrectly signed
They wouldnt be incorrectly signed according to the law though, because the law doesn’t require an END sign or repeaters. They might be incorrectly signed according to Highways England procedure or something, and you could try arguing that in court I suppose.
Repel_Max said:
It can't be simple if you haven't bothered to read the simple instructions. Read them and you will find how simple it is.
The link and quotes I posted are from an official source, the main source suggested when doing an internet search - ie, what most people searching for information on this topic will find also. I read it all thanks, and the quotes I posted are the only mentions. It does indeed seem simple when reading that source, that a blank sign means 70.Repel_Max said:
If you find somewhere that explains that a blank AMI or MS4 display after a previous one that had a restriction in the speed limit means the speed limit is NSL then post it up.
Again, I said in my original post that there is no mention of changing of limits between posted sign restrictions from this official source. Therefore, the only judgement you can make from this official source, is that a blank means 70! If it is really more complicated than this then the information needs clarifying/improving as it's not easily obtainable from an internet search.Andy S15 said:
Repel_Max said:
It can't be simple if you haven't bothered to read the simple instructions. Read them and you will find how simple it is.
The link and quotes I posted are from an official source, the main source suggested when doing an internet search - ie, what most people searching for information on this topic will find also. I read it all thanks, and the quotes I posted are the only mentions. It does indeed seem simple when reading that source, that a blank sign means 70.Repel_Max said:
If you find somewhere that explains that a blank AMI or MS4 display after a previous one that had a restriction in the speed limit means the speed limit is NSL then post it up.
Again, I said in my original post that there is no mention of changing of limits between posted sign restrictions from this official source. Therefore, the only judgement you can make from this official source, is that a blank means 70! If it is really more complicated than this then the information needs clarifying/improving as it's not easily obtainable from an internet search.I thought about this thread yesterday when driving on the M25 clockwise by Chertsey at 10:30pm.
There was a short stretch of temporary roadworks so they directed all traffic into lane 4 (red X's above lanes 1, 2, and 3) and dropped the limit down to 40mph. The first gantry after the roadworks was blank and the traffic around me immediately started to speed back up to 70mph and filling the other lanes again. I remained in lane 4 doing 40mph as there had been no signage indicating the other lanes had reopened or that the limit had increased back to NSL. After passing another blank gantry, and already feeling like a real hazard on the road, I too sped up to 70mph and moved back over to lane 2 (overtaking slower traffic in lane 1). I then proceeded to pass under about 10 blank gantries over a stretch of around 2 miles before passing under one illuminated with the NSL symbol.
Are people here seriously suggesting I should have remained in lane 4 doing 40mph for all that time?
There was a short stretch of temporary roadworks so they directed all traffic into lane 4 (red X's above lanes 1, 2, and 3) and dropped the limit down to 40mph. The first gantry after the roadworks was blank and the traffic around me immediately started to speed back up to 70mph and filling the other lanes again. I remained in lane 4 doing 40mph as there had been no signage indicating the other lanes had reopened or that the limit had increased back to NSL. After passing another blank gantry, and already feeling like a real hazard on the road, I too sped up to 70mph and moved back over to lane 2 (overtaking slower traffic in lane 1). I then proceeded to pass under about 10 blank gantries over a stretch of around 2 miles before passing under one illuminated with the NSL symbol.
Are people here seriously suggesting I should have remained in lane 4 doing 40mph for all that time?
Jimi.K. said:
So a blank overhead gantry can indicate that a lane has reopened, but not that a temporary speed limit has ended?
3)-(1) The significance of a [red X] is that it conveys to vehicular traffic that such traffic—
(a) must not proceed in the lane or actively managed hard shoulder to which the sign relates; and
(b) must not enter that lane or hard shoulder until one of the signs mentioned at sub-paragraph (2), or the legend “END”, is displayed on a matrix sign in
relation to that lane or hard shoulder.
(2) The signs referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(b) are—
(a) a sign provided for at item 1 of the Part 2 sign table in Schedule 10 (the maximum speed limit in mph); and
(b) a sign provided for at item 2 of that table (the national speed limit applies).
If (hypothetically) you were stopped and questioned as why you were proceeding at 40 in Lane 4, your response would be that you were following the guidance outlined above. I can understand the argument that a blank sign isn't a sign for speed limits (although I don't agree with it) but the absence of a red 'X' not being a sign is harder.
Jimi.K. said:
I thought about this thread yesterday when driving on the M25 clockwise by Chertsey at 10:30pm.
There was a short stretch of temporary roadworks so they directed all traffic into lane 4 (red X's above lanes 1, 2, and 3) and dropped the limit down to 40mph. The first gantry after the roadworks was blank and the traffic around me immediately started to speed back up to 70mph and filling the other lanes again. I remained in lane 4 doing 40mph as there had been no signage indicating the other lanes had reopened or that the limit had increased back to NSL. After passing another blank gantry, and already feeling like a real hazard on the road, I too sped up to 70mph and moved back over to lane 2 (overtaking slower traffic in lane 1). I then proceeded to pass under about 10 blank gantries over a stretch of around 2 miles before passing under one illuminated with the NSL symbol.
Are people here seriously suggesting I should have remained in lane 4 doing 40mph for all that time?
As lanes 1, 2 and 3 were closed, everyone should have. It isn't a suggestion...it's the law.There was a short stretch of temporary roadworks so they directed all traffic into lane 4 (red X's above lanes 1, 2, and 3) and dropped the limit down to 40mph. The first gantry after the roadworks was blank and the traffic around me immediately started to speed back up to 70mph and filling the other lanes again. I remained in lane 4 doing 40mph as there had been no signage indicating the other lanes had reopened or that the limit had increased back to NSL. After passing another blank gantry, and already feeling like a real hazard on the road, I too sped up to 70mph and moved back over to lane 2 (overtaking slower traffic in lane 1). I then proceeded to pass under about 10 blank gantries over a stretch of around 2 miles before passing under one illuminated with the NSL symbol.
Are people here seriously suggesting I should have remained in lane 4 doing 40mph for all that time?
As it is the M25 it appears that the law doesn't apply to the vast majority of drivers I see on that particular motorway. They think a Red-X is a Christmas decoration that hasn't yet been taken down.
Edited by Repel_Max on Wednesday 27th February 16:56
Graveworm]epel_Max said:
As lanes 1, 2 and 3 were closed, everyone should have. It isn't a suggestion...it's the law.
Even by your logic not everyone should have. Only the cars who passed the red X. So the lane is only "Closed" for them. Anyone joining further on could use them with aplomb.. 
k off.
We have a regular situation on the M25 where lanes are closed and a 40mph restriction operating on the remaining lanes. Then a series of blank gantries for a few miles, and then finally a national speed sign.
Because of the lack of any maintenance works in the closed lane area, and also the lack of repeater limit signs (I.E Blank gantries) there is the conflict between those proceeding as instructed (I.E. 40mph in lane 3) with those who revert to NSL and using the "closed" lanes.
I queried this scenario with Highways England and they confirmed that it is their correct procedure to not have any lit gantries during "roadworks" and that the lane closure and 40mph limit remains until the next NSL sign.
I replied and informed them, that in future I would not keep on as instructed as the much safer option is to revert to using NSL and all the lanes.
"Dear Mr Court
Thank you for contacting the Highways England Customer Contact Centre regarding your journey on the M25 junction 6 to 5 on the 8 February.
Firstly, may I take this opportunity on behalf of Highways England to apologise to you for the delay in responding to you concerns.
I have looked at the circumstances in full and I can now send you my findings.
At the time of your journey on the M25 junction 6 to 5 there were planned roadworks taking place, between these junctions of the motorway is the (ALR) all lanes running section of the M25 and is called a SMART motorway as you have stated.
As a SMART motorway there is a considerable amount of technology on the carriageway which must be maintained regularly. These junctions of the network is very busy so works usually takes place late in the evening after the rush hour has receded.
When maintenance works are due to commence, our Control Centre will receive a call from the contractor for gantry signals to be set in advance of the crew’s arrival for them to set out their (TM) traffic management. The signals are set to assist the road workers set out their Chapter 8 regulated traffic management safely. The control room operator then has a number of systems to disable to allow the road to be closed and will then set the lane closure signals.
Once a lane closure is set on our system (COBS), the system also automatically sets 40mph for all the available lanes; the traffic is slowed down to 40mph due to the danger of the initial traffic management implementation or removal. The control room would not clear these gantry signs until they receive a call from the contractor advising them all physical TM is in place and it is safe to do.
It is Highways England policy that once a roadworks closure’s traffic management is fully in place or installed the overhead lane closure signals are removed.
The national speed signs were turned off for the duration of the works between the areas the contractor stated the works were going to take place. The further sign would be set on the next available gantry.
At the time you were in the restricted Area of the motorway the contractor was still in the process of setting up the restrictions, no gantry signs were seen to end the restrictions as the contractor did not yet call into the control room to confirm he had completed the closure and place the side verge signs out.
Below is the way the signs were displayed
The signal displayed a lane divert right in lane 1, with lanes 2,3,4 showed as open. The message sign displayed “Road works Lane closure” plus the speed limit of 40mph.
The next sign displayed a lane divert right in both lanes 1 and 2 with lanes 3 and 4 showing as open. There was the road works symbol and the message sign displayed “Workforce in road” with the speed limit of 40mph.
The final sign displayed full Red X lane closures in lanes 1 and 2 with lanes 3 and 4 as open. The message sign displayed “Road works Lane closure” with a speed limit of 40mph.
The lane closure signals will appear immediately before the traffic management closure but after this, no signals should be displaying within the roadworks closure. The speed limit through this roadworks section was 40mph (as per advised by the final closure signal) and remained at 40mph until you reached the national speed limit sign, unfortunately, you went through before this appeared.
I have passed your comments on the management of the SMART motorway to the senior officers, I can only apologise to you for any confusion that you may have suffered on your journey, in the meantime."
Because of the lack of any maintenance works in the closed lane area, and also the lack of repeater limit signs (I.E Blank gantries) there is the conflict between those proceeding as instructed (I.E. 40mph in lane 3) with those who revert to NSL and using the "closed" lanes.
I queried this scenario with Highways England and they confirmed that it is their correct procedure to not have any lit gantries during "roadworks" and that the lane closure and 40mph limit remains until the next NSL sign.
I replied and informed them, that in future I would not keep on as instructed as the much safer option is to revert to using NSL and all the lanes.
"Dear Mr Court
Thank you for contacting the Highways England Customer Contact Centre regarding your journey on the M25 junction 6 to 5 on the 8 February.
Firstly, may I take this opportunity on behalf of Highways England to apologise to you for the delay in responding to you concerns.
I have looked at the circumstances in full and I can now send you my findings.
At the time of your journey on the M25 junction 6 to 5 there were planned roadworks taking place, between these junctions of the motorway is the (ALR) all lanes running section of the M25 and is called a SMART motorway as you have stated.
As a SMART motorway there is a considerable amount of technology on the carriageway which must be maintained regularly. These junctions of the network is very busy so works usually takes place late in the evening after the rush hour has receded.
When maintenance works are due to commence, our Control Centre will receive a call from the contractor for gantry signals to be set in advance of the crew’s arrival for them to set out their (TM) traffic management. The signals are set to assist the road workers set out their Chapter 8 regulated traffic management safely. The control room operator then has a number of systems to disable to allow the road to be closed and will then set the lane closure signals.
Once a lane closure is set on our system (COBS), the system also automatically sets 40mph for all the available lanes; the traffic is slowed down to 40mph due to the danger of the initial traffic management implementation or removal. The control room would not clear these gantry signs until they receive a call from the contractor advising them all physical TM is in place and it is safe to do.
It is Highways England policy that once a roadworks closure’s traffic management is fully in place or installed the overhead lane closure signals are removed.
The national speed signs were turned off for the duration of the works between the areas the contractor stated the works were going to take place. The further sign would be set on the next available gantry.
At the time you were in the restricted Area of the motorway the contractor was still in the process of setting up the restrictions, no gantry signs were seen to end the restrictions as the contractor did not yet call into the control room to confirm he had completed the closure and place the side verge signs out.
Below is the way the signs were displayed
The signal displayed a lane divert right in lane 1, with lanes 2,3,4 showed as open. The message sign displayed “Road works Lane closure” plus the speed limit of 40mph.
The next sign displayed a lane divert right in both lanes 1 and 2 with lanes 3 and 4 showing as open. There was the road works symbol and the message sign displayed “Workforce in road” with the speed limit of 40mph.
The final sign displayed full Red X lane closures in lanes 1 and 2 with lanes 3 and 4 as open. The message sign displayed “Road works Lane closure” with a speed limit of 40mph.
The lane closure signals will appear immediately before the traffic management closure but after this, no signals should be displaying within the roadworks closure. The speed limit through this roadworks section was 40mph (as per advised by the final closure signal) and remained at 40mph until you reached the national speed limit sign, unfortunately, you went through before this appeared.
I have passed your comments on the management of the SMART motorway to the senior officers, I can only apologise to you for any confusion that you may have suffered on your journey, in the meantime."
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