M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?

[jamei303]

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Edited by jamei303 on Tuesday 12th February 07:42

[mygoldfishbowl]

jamei303 said:

This is a tangent. There may well be "a permanent sign that says 'variable limit ends' at the end of every variable scheme". However this is simply so that there is no need for a final gantry with a permanently illuminated NSL sign.

The fact is that if there are no repeaters then any variable limit on a motorway expires after a set distance.

Then I think there should be illuminated gantries at those set distances pointing out you've reached a set distance, just so we're sure.

[321boost]

Are you guys seriously arguing about what ghe13rte said? He comes across as a troll and probably a part of some useless busy body anti-speed campaign with no life.

To the OP, the way I understand is you saw a reduced speed limit on one gantry and not the next one so you sped up, if so don’t worry if you didn’t see a flash then you’re okay.
You’re also okay because if no special speed limit is shown then the NSL applies.

Think of it this way, if you joined a smart motorway and no reduced speed limit was shown but there was a reduced speed limit shown before the junction that you used to join the smart motorway then how are you expected to know what the reduced speed limit is?

[J2daG1990]

If a gantry sign is is blank, then it means it won't flash if you are going 70mph under it. So for example, if you've gone under a 40mph sign and the next one is blank you would be fine doing the NSL. They have a system built in which means even if it was meant to show 40mph and it's faulty it won't flash.

What you have to be careful of is that you can still get flashed by them if speeding excessively over the limit. So for example go 106mph through one and you risk a flash.

[ghe13rte]

mygoldfishbowl said:

BertBert said:

ghe13rte said:

This wishful thinking is getting tedious.
At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends” and has a fekkin great NSL sign.
The unlit AMI is not an NSL sign.

But we've been here before. You make these definitive statements with lots of huffing and eye-raising but can never show us any materials to back it up. You may well be right but when there is no backup info and as we have seen, published info that might contradict it, what do you expect?
Bert

Unfortunately I believe he is right.

You know's I'm right!

mygoldfishbowl said:

The problem is though apart from one section the M25, which the op was asking about, is controlled by one very long variable limit section. That means there are no permanent NSL signs apart from one I think something near J5 anti clockwise and one after J3 clockwise. If what he is saying was set in stone traffic would never get above 40 or 50mph.

I believe there should be an NSL on the next gantry after a variable limit has been lifted, but it rarely happens which I can only guess is down to human error and begs the question, can someone be accused of speeding if the NSL hasn't been lit? Which is basically what the op has asked. Not from a fixed camera, but what about police on patrol? If the NSL sign needing to be lit isn't law at the moment I believe it eventually will be.

Edit for the pedants. Yes, I know there's a section in Dartford that is classed as an A road and not M25.

The OP was very clear about what was asked:

funkyrobot said:

M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?

jamei303 said:

This is a tangent. There may well be "a permanent sign that says 'variable limit ends' at the end of every variable scheme". However this is simply so that there is no need for a final gantry with a permanently illuminated NSL sign.

The fact is that if there are no repeaters then any variable limit on a motorway expires after a set distance.

You can't just go making these things up because that is what you would like the situation to be.

The older guidance had a series of distances that were used on a per-speed-limit-basis to set out repeaters. Even when that guidance was in use, it isn't any more, that wouldn't set the validity of the speed limit. Unless there were so few repeaters that failed to give adequate guidance to drivers then the limit remained even if the repeat distance was not set out to comply with the guidance. The new guidance merely states that the repeaters for a speed limit should provide adequate guidance.

One thing it definitely does not say is "...if there are no repeaters then any variable limit on a motorway expires after a set distance" and that is a fact.

[BertBert]

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from the leaflet "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

[SS2.]

BertBert said:

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from...making_motorways_smarter_leaflet... "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

Their flyer might not say that, but it is what the legislation provides:

Typical variable speed limit regulations said:

Reg. 3 (2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

[BertBert]

ghe13rte said:

You can't just go making these things up because that is what you would like the situation to be.

Agreed

ghe13rte said:

The older guidance had a series of distances that were used on a per-speed-limit-basis to set out repeaters. Even when that guidance was in use, it isn't any more, that wouldn't set the validity of the speed limit.

What is the reference for this? That is certainly in direct contradiction to the info given out at a SAC at the time before the new rules.
Bert

[ghe13rte]

BertBert said:

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from the leaflet "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

F***-me this is hard work!

Imagine this is a set of gantries where X = unlit; a number = lit with a speed limit; N = NSL lit:

X X X X X X is 6 gantries with no speed limit, NSL is in force. This is the situation you and Speedking31 and the leaflet is explaining

X 40 40 40 40 N is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to 6 with NSL after gantry 6

X 40 X X X N is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to 6 with NSL after gantry 6

X 40 X X X X is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to the end of the Variable speed limit area where you will find a permanent NSL sign

There is nothing in the leaflet referred to that contradicts what I have said because the unlit sign is not a sign FFS.

[ghe13rte]

SS2. said:

BertBert said:

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from...making_motorways_smarter_leaflet... "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

Their flyer might not say that, but it is what the legislation provides:

Typical variable speed limit regulations said:

Reg. 3 (2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

Exactly!...and if BertBert and his like-minded chums can find a traffic sign in any regulation that is a black rectangle and which means NSL applies I will bow to their superior knowledge and ability to find regulations that don't exist.

Edited to add. I think it would prevent any confusion if the HE operators did light up the signs when they wanted either the reduced limit to apply or the NSL to apply but at this time they don't. They rely on advanced knowledge of signs when really the knowledge should be routine and known by all. It seems it isn't routinely known as "experts" on here seem to have it mixed up too.

Edited by ghe13rte on Tuesday 28th August 15:52

[johnao]

SS2. said:

Their flyer might not say that, but it is what the legislation provides:

Typical variable speed limit regulations said:

Reg. 3 (2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force; or
(iii) an unlit speed limit sign which an operator 300 miles away has forgotten to illuminate. This will usually be evidenced by traffic flowing at two different speeds on this stretch of motorway, viz; 1). the speed shown on the last illuminated speed sign, or 2). at 70+ mph. You must understand that this is an "intelligent motorway solution" operated by unintelligent humans.

I've amended the above noted quotation to give its full reading as per the variable speed limit regulations as they apply to the M25.

[321boost]

SS2. said:

BertBert said:

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from...making_motorways_smarter_leaflet... "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

Their flyer might not say that, but it is what the legislation provides:

Typical variable speed limit regulations said:

Reg. 3 (2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

So how do you interpret (4) in relation to (1) and (2b)?

(4) For the purposes of this regulation a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.

[ghe13rte]

321boost said:

SS2. said:

BertBert said:

So what does this mean then? It doesn't say that once you see a speed limit displayed, it stays in force until you see an NSL sign.

speedking31 said:

and from...making_motorways_smarter_leaflet... "We use 60, 50 and 40mph limits on all types of smart motorways. When no speed limit is shown the national speed limit of 70mph is in place ..."

Their flyer might not say that, but it is what the legislation provides:

Typical variable speed limit regulations said:

Reg. 3 (2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

So how do you interpret (4) in relation to (1) and (2b)?

(4) For the purposes of this regulation a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.

[apotts]

Just come off at a junction, get a new limit at the end of the slip road, come back on again and you are free to do 70 from there on.

Or... just save the fuel and imagine you did it.

[ghe13rte]

apotts said:

Just come off at a junction, get a new limit at the end of the slip road, come back on again and you are free to do 70 from there on.

Or... just save the fuel and imagine you did it.

That makes more sense than a lot of opinions here.

[pingu393]

Something that I noticed on M1 Jct25 (N) was when the gantry immediately after the 50mph average speed cameras was set to NSL there were a lot of flashed cars.

Now, the gantry is blank, there are hardly ever any cars flashed, yet the rolling start grand prix is still the same.

My thinking is that when the setting is NSL, the cameras flash at 78mph (or less), but when there is no setting, the cameras flash at a higher speed.



BTW, OP, I've never been flashed for going under an unlit gantry. I go under a 40 gantry at 40, but I accelerate to 70 if the next gantry is unlit - legally (IFAIK) the limit doesn't return to NSL until the next gantry.

[mygoldfishbowl]

ghe13rte said:

You know I'm right.

Don't let your arrogance get the better of you. I believe you were right, when you said this..

ghe13rte said:

At the end of every variable scheme there is a permanent sign that says “variable limit ends"

I certainly don't know, or care, if you're right about anything else.

The op was specifically asking about the M25 so whether you were right or not has little relevance.

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Tuesday 28th August 21:54

[mygoldfishbowl]

pingu393 said:

My thinking is that when the setting is NSL, the cameras flash at 78mph (or less)

ghe13rte, are you going to explain to him where he is wrong here?

[ghe13rte]

mygoldfishbowl said:

pingu393 said:

My thinking is that when the setting is NSL, the cameras flash at 78mph (or less)

ghe13rte, are you going to explain to him where he is wrong here?

No.
I won't discuss enforcement thresholds.
You can all speculate as much as you wish; I won't be adding anything to your debate on that subject.
It is funny though.

[creampuff]

ghe13rte said:

F***-me this is hard work!

Imagine this is a set of gantries where X = unlit; a number = lit with a speed limit; N = NSL lit:

X X X X X X is 6 gantries with no speed limit, NSL is in force. This is the situation you and Speedking31 and the leaflet is explaining

X 40 40 40 40 N is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to 6 with NSL after gantry 6

X 40 X X X N is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to 6 with NSL after gantry 6

X 40 X X X X is 6 gantries with a 40mph limit set between gantries 2 to the end of the Variable speed limit area where you will find a permanent NSL sign

There is nothing in the leaflet referred to that contradicts what I have said because the unlit sign is not a sign FFS.

That is not the way managed motorways operate in practice, regardless of what the underlying legislation says.
- NIPs do not appear to be issued when there is a blank sign and a vehicle is doing 70mph
- There are many instances of traffic joining a motorway with blank signs after a previous 40-50-60 on the main carriageway and with a blank sign (i.e. NSL) on the slip road.