M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?

[mygoldfishbowl]

ghe13rte said:

No.
I won't discuss enforcement thresholds.
You can all speculate as much as you wish; I won't be adding anything to your debate on that subject.
It is funny though.

Not as funny as you, and you've discussed enforceable thresholds before or rather you've told half truths and thrown in a white lie or two with a sprinkling of some chief constable says nonsense.

[speedking31]

I have also sought advice from HE and finally got a reply. They confirm ghe13rte's assertion that a blank display means that the previously passed limit is still in force. However, that is moot as they also state that enforcement will not be undertaken up to NSL when no speed limit is displayed. They also imply that if end aspects are not displayed then there is a fault, i.e. end aspects should always be displayed unless there is a permanent NSL sign.

Highways England said:

Dear speedking31

Thank you for your email to our customer contact centre about Smart Motorway Speed Limits.

The “official” answer to your query is that, unless a national speed limit or “End” signal is displayed, or there is a “hard” sign indicating the end of the variable speed limit area, the previously indicated speed limit is still in force.
We are aware however, that there are occasions when, due to a technical issue, these end aspects are not always displayed when they should be. We’re working on a fix to one of the major causes of the failure to display and we have also highlighted to our control centre operators a need to intervene to ensure an end aspect is displayed when they are aware of faulty sign. We would encourage our customers to report any faulty signals to the customer contact centre on 0300 123 5000 if it is safe and legal to do so.

In terms of enforcement, the speed cameras will only be activated where a vehicle’s speed exceeds that displayed on the sign or, when no speed is displayed, the national speed limit.

Thank you again for raising this issue. If you require any further information on smart motorways this can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar... or by contacting us using the below details.

Kind regards

Chris Sweet, Senior Administrator, Smart Motorways

[jamei303]

They're wrong, it's not "in force" if it's not enforceable due to missing the repeater signs required by law.

[Pica-Pica]

speedking31 said:

I have also sought advice from HE and finally got a reply. They confirm ghe13rte's assertion that a blank display means that the previously passed limit is still in force. However, that is moot as they also state that enforcement will not be undertaken up to NSL when no speed limit is displayed. They also imply that if end aspects are not displayed then there is a fault, i.e. end aspects should always be displayed unless there is a permanent NSL sign.

Highways England said:

Dear speedking31

Thank you for your email to our customer contact centre about Smart Motorway Speed Limits.

The “official” answer to your query is that, unless a national speed limit or “End” signal is displayed, or there is a “hard” sign indicating the end of the variable speed limit area, the previously indicated speed limit is still in force.
We are aware however, that there are occasions when, due to a technical issue, these end aspects are not always displayed when they should be. We’re working on a fix to one of the major causes of the failure to display and we have also highlighted to our control centre operators a need to intervene to ensure an end aspect is displayed when they are aware of faulty sign. We would encourage our customers to report any faulty signals to the customer contact centre on 0300 123 5000 if it is safe and legal to do so.

In terms of enforcement, the speed cameras will only be activated where a vehicle’s speed exceeds that displayed on the sign or, when no speed is displayed, the national speed limit.

Thank you again for raising this issue. If you require any further information on smart motorways this can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar... or by contacting us using the below details.

Kind regards

Chris Sweet, Senior Administrator, Smart Motorways

On a previous thread here, I wrote similar. My e-mail reply from Highways England (below) is very similar.
....
Thank you for your email to the Highways England customer contact centre on 28 August about speed limits displayed on smart motorways.

The simple answer to your question is that there should be an “End” or NSL signal displayed at the end of any reduced, variable speed limit. We are aware, however, that there are certain times and locations where this is not the case and our technical teams are working to apply a solution to resolve this issue.

From an enforcement point of view, the speed cameras can only enforce at either the speed limit displayed or, where no limit is displayed, the national speed limit and this would apply to the above scenario also.

Thanks again for your query. I hope that the above answers your query but if you need any further information please get in touch using the below contact details.

Kind regards

Chris Sweet, Senior Administrator, Smart Motorways
Highways England | 2 Colmore Square | Birmingham | B4 6BN

Edited by Pica-Pica on Friday 16th November 09:09

[courty]

Interesting reading this thread.

This issue isn't only about speed limits, it is also about lane closures.

Last night M25 between junction 6 and 5 anticlockwise (a fair few miles with no joining traffic) I passed a gantry closing lanes 1 and 2 (X, X) and imposing a 40MPH limit (40, 40) for lanes 3 and 4, with the additional explanation, "Workforce in Road".

All further gantries were blank. No subsequent workforce in the road that I could see...lanes 1 and 2 not re-opened, NSL not re-signed.

After about three miles at 40mph, I found myself in lane 3 (along with a couple of other vehicles) doing 40mph...while following traffic came past in lanes 1, 2 and 4 at 70mph+.

Do gantry control officers get bored and try to cause pile ups/ make interesting CCTV viewing or do they just fall asleep and do random keyboard imputs with their fore-head?

[courty]

courty said:

Interesting reading this thread.

This issue isn't only about speed limits, it is also about lane closures.

Last night M25 between junction 6 and 5 anticlockwise (a fair few miles with no joining traffic) I passed a gantry closing lanes 1 and 2 (X, X) and imposing a 40MPH limit (40, 40) for lanes 3 and 4, with the additional explanation, "Workforce in Road".

All further gantries were blank. No subsequent workforce in the road that I could see...lanes 1 and 2 not re-opened, NSL not re-signed.

After about three miles at 40mph, I found myself in lane 3 (along with a couple of other vehicles) doing 40mph...while following traffic came past in lanes 1, 2 and 4 at 70mph+.

Do gantry control officers get bored and try to cause pile ups/ make interesting CCTV viewing or do they just fall asleep and do random keyboard imputs with their fore-head?

Also, if there was a pile up...would the insurance companies be seeking legal advice as to whether the the motorway operator is partially responsible for causing dangerous driving in such cases??

[BertBert]

I don't think the red crosses have a start and end like the variable speed limit does (in theory). And for me if the subsequent gantry is blank for crosses and speed limits, I'm generally looking to resume normal progress appropriate for the conditions.
Bert

[courty]

BertBert said:

I don't think the red crosses have a start and end like the variable speed limit does (in theory). And for me if the subsequent gantry is blank for crosses and speed limits, I'm generally looking to resume normal progress appropriate for the conditions.
Bert

I have written to Highways England, so I'll see what they say, but I think I will do the same as you in future having read through this thread.

[ashleyman]

BertBert said:

I don't think the red crosses have a start and end like the variable speed limit does (in theory). And for me if the subsequent gantry is blank for crosses and speed limits, I'm generally looking to resume normal progress appropriate for the conditions.
Bert

This is how I see it. Same as any road really if there’s no signs to say otherwise usual rules apply. And on motorways that means all lanes open and at 70!

[BertBert]

ashleyman said:

This is how I see it. Same as any road really if there’s no signs to say otherwise usual rules apply. And on motorways that means all lanes open and at 70!

There is some greyness which I'm surprised that repel_ghertie hasn't been along to tell us is black and white. Once the (reduced) speed limit is signed, in theory it stays in place until the NSL sign. However to be enforceable it has to have repeaters. The law on repeaters was changed to remove the specific min distances, so that's grey. However I think we have established that a prosecution from HADECS3 won't happen without a pic of the variable speed limit being enforced.

Hence my view that as soon as you don't see the variable speed limit on a variable speed limit sign, you can look to not follow it, conditions allowing.
Bert

[Pica-Pica]

BertBert said:

... The law on repeaters was changed to remove the specific min distances..
Bert

I am told one of the reason why the minimum distance for repeaters, and also the need for speed signs to be on both sides were removed, is because they were being nicked for birthday presents.. 40, 50, etc., and thus rendering the speed would be invalid. The TSRGD 2016 embodies these and other regulations.

[Heres Johnny]

Pica-Pica said:

BertBert said:

... The law on repeaters was changed to remove the specific min distances..
Bert

I am told one of the reason why the minimum distance for repeaters, and also the need for speed signs to be on both sides were removed, is because they were being nicked for birthday presents.. 40, 50, etc., and thus rendering the speed would be invalid. The TSRGD 2016 embodies these and other regulations.

I understood (although could be pub talk, can't remember where I heard it) it to be so towns could get away from the stupid numbers of signs that can occur. I also understood it was only applicable to urban areas and maybe that's because speed limit signs generally mean a higher speed than the default rather than a lower one in these areas - ie the default in a street lit road as you'd find in a town or city would be 30 in the absence of any signs to the contrary, if in doubt, you'd slow down. In a rural or technically unlit road situation the speed limits tend to work in the opposite direction and impose lower limits, missing a speed limit the default is higher, not so good for the powers that be,

[BertBert]

Repeaters are still needed, just the rules governing their placement have changed.
Bert

[Repel_Max]

You can fantasise all you like about what the law is on this but as was confirmed by the HE response, the signal stays in force until an END signal is seen.

The principle that an unlit Advanced Motorway Indicator (AMI) or MS4 display, the big display boards on the left of the road, when unlit ARE NOT A ROAD SIGN, needs to be acknowledged. The fanciful notion that unlit AMIs and MS4s are an indication that the previous signalled regulation has ended needs to be abandoned.

As mentioned many times above it is wrong.

[4rephill]

BertBert said:

ashleyman said:

This is how I see it. Same as any road really if there’s no signs to say otherwise usual rules apply. And on motorways that means all lanes open and at 70!

There is some greyness which I'm surprised that repel_ghertie hasn't been along to tell us is black and white. Once the (reduced) speed limit is signed, in theory it stays in place until the NSL sign. However to be enforceable it has to have repeaters. The law on repeaters was changed to remove the specific min distances, so that's grey. However I think we have established that a prosecution from HADECS3 won't happen without a pic of the variable speed limit being enforced.

Hence my view that as soon as you don't see the variable speed limit on a variable speed limit sign, you can look to not follow it, conditions allowing.
Bert

Reading this thread, and noting the replies from the Highways Agency on the matter, the funniest thing is, both sides arguing their case, as to whether the reduced speed limit is still in place if a gantry display that comes after a reduced speed limit zone, is blank, rather than showing the NSL symbol, are both technically correct!


The legislation states that until an NSL sign has been passed, the reduced speed limit remains in place (as argued by ghe13rte).

But....

The Highways Agency confirming that anyone driving up to the NSL under a blank gantry that appears after a reduced speed limit zone, will not face prosecution, confirms that it is acceptable to no longer adhere to the reduced limit.

So the difference is:

ghe13rte will spend the rest of his time on the motorway trundling along at reduced speed, waiting for an NSL sign that may never appear, and getting passed by all and sundry, whilst everyone else will be back up to @ the NSL, wondering why ghe13rte is going so slowly, getting in the way!

[BertBert]

Repel_Max said:

The principle that an unlit Advanced Motorway Indicator (AMI) or MS4 display, the big display boards on the left of the road, when unlit ARE NOT A ROAD SIGN, needs to be acknowledged.

Apart from when it's not got an X on it above a lane when the previous one did have an X you mean?
And how many unlit signs have to go by before the requirements for repeaters are not met?
And how many drivers have been prosecuted for exceeding a variable speed limit without the photo of the variable speed limit sign being available?
Bert

[Repel_Max]

BertBert said:

Repel_Max said:

The principle that an unlit Advanced Motorway Indicator (AMI) or MS4 display, the big display boards on the left of the road, when unlit ARE NOT A ROAD SIGN, needs to be acknowledged.

Apart from when it's not got an X on it above a lane when the previous one did have an X you mean?

No.

BertBert said:

And how many unlit signs have to go by before the requirements for repeaters are not met?

The restriction or mandatory direction remains until the end sign.

BertBert said:

And how many drivers have been prosecuted for exceeding a variable speed limit without the photo of the variable speed limit sign being available?
Bert

That is a different matter.
Whether the law has been enforced or is likely to be enforced is different to what the law is.
The restriction stays in force until a sign says it has ended.
I make no comment on whether the automatic enforcement operates or not or whether the police routinely enforce the restriction. What I will say is both can.

[BertBert]

Repel_Max said:

The restriction stays in force until a sign says it has ended.

So how long can it go on without repeaters then?
Bert

[Heres Johnny]

Why do we keep assuming the road has to be correctly signed and then we try to interpret it? Its possible the road is incorrectly signed rather than its one speed or another.

I believe highways saying the speed limi doesn’t change until a sign saying it changes is what they should do. I certainly don’t believe an unlit sign is a sign a temporary restriction has ended, but signage disappearing throws into question the veracity of any speed restriction and once there is ambiguity the prosecution will lose, hence they don’t proceed with prosecutions.

The defence for the driver would be ‘I’d driven for over 2 miles without any speed restriction signs including past several unlit digital signage...’ is an argument of mitigation a judge may accept as a reasonable defence if the highways agency managed to argue what the technical limit was. The argument is thinner if it was driving for half a mile and past one unlit gantry, stronger to the point of absurdity it was anything but true if it was 20 miles.

What I’m saying is the road becomes incorrectly marked for either limit, the changing rules on repeaters increases ambiguity but reducing it to absurdity a temporary limit as you leave London on the M1 doesn’t stay in force until Yorkshire without another sign. The signage is simply wrong.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 11th February 08:05

[Repel_Max]

BertBert said:

Repel_Max said:

The restriction stays in force until a sign says it has ended.

So how long can it go on without repeaters then?
Bert

Until there is a sign that says END