M25 variable speed limits - when does the reduced speed end?
Discussion
There you go.
Everyone who used the closed lanes increased the danger to road workers who rely on the signals to protect them.
...and all because drivers remain ignorant of the regulations even when they are as keen on driving as members here purport to be.
Perhaps this discussion has brought some light on the subject.
Everyone who used the closed lanes increased the danger to road workers who rely on the signals to protect them.
...and all because drivers remain ignorant of the regulations even when they are as keen on driving as members here purport to be.
Perhaps this discussion has brought some light on the subject.
courty said:
The speed limit through this roadworks section was 40mph (as per advised by the final closure signal) and remained at 40mph until you reached the national speed limit sign, unfortunately, you went through before this appeared.
Surely the NSL sign at the end of the works should have been set before the 40 mph sign at the start ?It would be much easier if they just illuminated the signs. We already paid for them and they're already installed, so use them!
I don't understand why it needs be any harder than that. Yes, there are rules and regs and documents of laws etc... but it's all rubbish if the vast majority of drivers find the signs confusing.
As for the L1,2,3 being closed and L4 being open at 40 - I've had the same thing. Blank gantry everyone is now undertaking and speeding up and I'm sat in L4 like a donut at 40 with traffic going way faster in other lanes. Regardless of what the law actually states, it's dangerous and if the signs are there, they should use them.
I don't understand why it needs be any harder than that. Yes, there are rules and regs and documents of laws etc... but it's all rubbish if the vast majority of drivers find the signs confusing.
As for the L1,2,3 being closed and L4 being open at 40 - I've had the same thing. Blank gantry everyone is now undertaking and speeding up and I'm sat in L4 like a donut at 40 with traffic going way faster in other lanes. Regardless of what the law actually states, it's dangerous and if the signs are there, they should use them.
ashleyman said:
It would be much easier if they just illuminated the signs. We already paid for them and they're already installed, so use them!
I don't understand why it needs be any harder than that. Yes, there are rules and regs and documents of laws etc... but it's all rubbish if the vast majority of drivers find the signs confusing.
As for the L1,2,3 being closed and L4 being open at 40 - I've had the same thing. Blank gantry everyone is now undertaking and speeding up and I'm sat in L4 like a donut at 40 with traffic going way faster in other lanes. Regardless of what the law actually states, it's dangerous and if the signs are there, they should use them.
The key point within all of this prior guff, apart from my contributions, of course, is that an unlit motorway indicator is not a sign.I don't understand why it needs be any harder than that. Yes, there are rules and regs and documents of laws etc... but it's all rubbish if the vast majority of drivers find the signs confusing.
As for the L1,2,3 being closed and L4 being open at 40 - I've had the same thing. Blank gantry everyone is now undertaking and speeding up and I'm sat in L4 like a donut at 40 with traffic going way faster in other lanes. Regardless of what the law actually states, it's dangerous and if the signs are there, they should use them.
Sometimes on the M25, there are a number of gantries in a row with the red cross on them. So if they use those at the start of the closure, there does not seem to be any logic to not keep repeating them when the gantries are actually there. What would be the benefit / reason for NOT using them.
ashleyman said:
Vast majority of people think they are signs.
Which is the problem. Compounded by what the official web sites say on the matter.There is no need to reduce the speed limit or even have a speed limit to protect workers from good drivers. If they drive at any speed, such they can stop in the distance they can see to be clear and that they can reasonably expect to be clear, whilst paying attention - then the workers are safe.
The requirement would be for people who are not doing the above. It's fair to assume that they might also be the ones who would see the first unlit gantry as an indication the road is clear and they can go for it. Which would be the opposite to what those setting the limits wanted to achieve. For it to actually protect the workers it has to slow those drivers and or keep them out those lanes.
If the signage is insufficient it:
Doesn't add any protection for the workers
Is most likely unenforceable so would not deter large groups of people.
Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 28th February 09:35
ashleyman said:
Repel_Max said:
The key point within all of this prior guff, apart from my contributions, of course, is that an unlit motorway indicator is not a sign.
Vast majority of people think they are signs. I understand ignorance of the law would not be a defence.
It is a poor show when drivers are racing into the distance with road workers putting out cones right in their path.
The choices are to either:
a. light up the signs as a palliative measure to deal with the ignorant, or,
b. leave the signs as they are and educate the ignorant
I think the problem that both options will have is that the " vast majority of people" will carry on ignoring the signs, lit or unlit, because they don't see a reason why the signs are lit. That in itself is another sign of ignorance...but there you have it.
Repel_Max said:
ashleyman said:
Repel_Max said:
The key point within all of this prior guff, apart from my contributions, of course, is that an unlit motorway indicator is not a sign.
Vast majority of people think they are signs. I understand ignorance of the law would not be a defence.
It is a poor show when drivers are racing into the distance with road workers putting out cones right in their path.
The choices are to either:
a. light up the signs as a palliative measure to deal with the ignorant, or,
b. leave the signs as they are and educate the ignorant
I think the problem that both options will have is that the " vast majority of people" will carry on ignoring the signs, lit or unlit, because they don't see a reason why the signs are lit. That in itself is another sign of ignorance...but there you have it.
So far they have done neither of your 2 suggestions. They don't use the signs available and they don't improve education.
People will carry on ignoring the sign lit or unlit? I thought an unlit sign wasn't a sign?
The signage is also applied in a contradictory manner. On the SMART motorway section of the M1 heading North from Hemel, when reduced limits are being imposed, the signs frequently read e.g. 50, 50, 50, 40, 60, 60, 50, i.e. there are repeats of the same limit.
They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
This is different to the experience at roadworks.
So the signage requirements vary depending on why they have been set, which is an unknown to the driver.
They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
This is different to the experience at roadworks.
So the signage requirements vary depending on why they have been set, which is an unknown to the driver.
speedking31 said:
The signage is also applied in a contradictory manner. On the SMART motorway section of the M1 heading North from Hemel, when reduced limits are being imposed, the signs frequently read e.g. 50, 50, 50, 40, 60, 60, 50, i.e. there are repeats of the same limit.
They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
No, within the SMART section, the last sign you passed is your limit until you pass another sign. Quite simple.They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
jamei303 said:
speedking31 said:
The signage is also applied in a contradictory manner. On the SMART motorway section of the M1 heading North from Hemel, when reduced limits are being imposed, the signs frequently read e.g. 50, 50, 50, 40, 60, 60, 50, i.e. there are repeats of the same limit.
They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
No, within the SMART section, the last sign you passed is your limit until you pass another sign. Quite simple.They are all illuminated, all the time, because a different variable limit may be applied at any gantry at any time to control the flow, and to have signs just turning black would definitely be confusing in that scenario, as you would have to remember the last sign that you passed, and also know which of the preceding signs had been turned off so you knew what the current limit is at the point where you are. Clearly impossible.
BertBert said:
I don't think the red crosses have a start and end like the variable speed limit does (in theory). And for me if the subsequent gantry is blank for crosses and speed limits, I'm generally looking to resume normal progress appropriate for the conditions.
Bert
Red crosses, when they spread across the lanes (a full road closure) do not have 'End' after them. If there are any lanes open they will have End or NSL shown across the next gantry, as you have the ability to change lanes (If that makes sense).Bert
Anyone fancy the job of "Running the M25" 
https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
speedyguy said:
Anyone fancy the job of "Running the M25"
https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
I'll apply later (but which stretch is "Area 5")?https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
If it was within Area 5 my first choice would be to scrap the pointless 50 limits from J12 to J11 that are in force every day regardless of traffic volume - all they do is bung it up and create a walking pace queue!
Total waste of time - to the extent that I don't bother using it any more! A331, A31 and A3 is much quicker, which does make you wonder why we even have motorways when A-roads are quicker!
Surely that was the whole point of motorways, wasn't it?Mr Tidy said:
speedyguy said:
Anyone fancy the job of "Running the M25"
https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
I'll apply later (but which stretch is "Area 5")?https://highwaysengland.taleo.net/careersection/ex...
Oh and how would you improve it
If it was within Area 5 my first choice would be to scrap the pointless 50 limits from J12 to J11 that are in force every day regardless of traffic volume - all they do is bung it up and create a walking pace queue!
Total waste of time - to the extent that I don't bother using it any more! A331, A31 and A3 is much quicker, which does make you wonder why we even have motorways when A-roads are quicker!
Surely that was the whole point of motorways, wasn't it?
)https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/roads-m...
One of the problems of congested motorways is local traffic and/or commuters junction hopping rather than motorways being used for their intended primary purpose of long distance journeys the M60 and M25 being cases in point
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