speed camera obsession

[vonhosen]

Davidonly said:

Driving around Germany on a grand tour just now. Hardly a scam anywhere to be seen, including on POI via sat nav. Only seen them in 50 km/h and 30 km/h areas in Dresden.

Its' a joy compared to driving at home. Not a SINGLE ASC so far Lots of roadworks mind you. Oh and plenty of limit free Autobahn including brand new stretches. Must have leaned how to build a new road without 'accident blackspots' installed from day 1 here...

Mostly excellent lane discipline, although some tailgating here and there. Cruise at 110 -120 mph for ages on some bits. Its like actually travelling somewhere.

I always feel my faith in logic and engineering restored for a while by my regular visits to this country. Bavaria is my fave part (so far) although really liked Wismar earlier in the trip.

I also love the way road work speed limits end with virtually the last traffic cone rather than a mile later with everyone fuming under the ASC threat for absolutely no reason.

There are some strange limits set and new reductions but overall much more bearable than UK.

Back home the 'gong' sound on the NAV for a new speed camera warning is literally continuous in some parts of the country.

Having said all that, Cumbria, Northumberland, parts of Wales and Scotland are still great places to drive

I've just come back from Germany.
Multiple autobahn closures following accidents, road closures & diversions for road works time & again.
No better lane discipline than others countries evident, I certainly witnessed better lane discipline in Holland than in Germany.
Plenty of tailgating going on in Germany.
Road surfaces were better than here though.
Also saw plenty of speed cameras of various descriptions, but had no TomTom camera warnings for any of them.

[johnwilliams77]

I've been in germany a few times now and the lane discipline is always far superior to here.

[Who me ?]

280E said:

up_shift said:

Meanwhile the mrs smashed into some brickwork that was spewed across the motorway in the hire car,

Which might have been avoided had she been driving more slowly

hmm- looks like the "[b SAFETY CAMERAS/b] didn't prevent that accident,whereas there's every chance that a police road traffic patrol would have spotted a vehicle loosing it's load and stopped it to clean up the mess.

[vonhosen]

Who me said:

280E said:

up_shift said:

Meanwhile the mrs smashed into some brickwork that was spewed across the motorway in the hire car,

Which might have been avoided had she been driving more slowly

hmm- looks like the "[b SAFETY CAMERAS/b] didn't prevent that accident,whereas there's every chance that a police road traffic patrol would have spotted a vehicle loosing it's load and stopped it to clean up the mess.

You think that there's every chance that a vehicle would just happen (with the huge area it would have to cover) to be in the exact place this happened at the exact time it happened?
The odds would be much more likely on it wouldn't have been & even with the extremely slim chance it was, it still hasn't prevented it if it has to clean up the mess.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th September 21:26

[Willy Nilly]

johnwilliams77 said:

I've been in germany a few times now and the lane discipline is always far superior to here.

+1

Germany and France are good. Belgium, oh dear. I like driving in Germany because they get on with it

[Ken Figenus]

I'm mixed about Germany... One one hand people respect the limits more as they are applied more intelligently and for a reason rather than 'because we say so and it was decided in 1969', but on the other hand the unrestricted sections lead some to be utter idiots and some to go at a pace faster than I consider safe for the traffic density.

I had an Audi lock up all four wheels behind me due to tailgaiting and impatience once - there was a slower car in front of me but he wanted me to GTF out of his way rather than wait for me to wait for the slower car to finish its manouver before it pulled back in. They come down hard on that sort of selfish aggressive 'out of my way' intimidating driving in Germany if caught mind... It was a pleasure to say 'auf wiederdehen knobhead' once the car in front pulled in but it was ridiculous piece of driving by him which did make mew wonder.

[Davidonly]

vonhosen said:

Davidonly said:

Driving around Germany on a grand tour just now. Hardly a scam anywhere to be seen, including on POI via sat nav. Only seen them in 50 km/h and 30 km/h areas in Dresden.

Its' a joy compared to driving at home. Not a SINGLE ASC so far Lots of roadworks mind you. Oh and plenty of limit free Autobahn including brand new stretches. Must have leaned how to build a new road without 'accident blackspots' installed from day 1 here...

Mostly excellent lane discipline, although some tailgating here and there. Cruise at 110 -120 mph for ages on some bits. Its like actually travelling somewhere.

I always feel my faith in logic and engineering restored for a while by my regular visits to this country. Bavaria is my fave part (so far) although really liked Wismar earlier in the trip.

I also love the way road work speed limits end with virtually the last traffic cone rather than a mile later with everyone fuming under the ASC threat for absolutely no reason.

There are some strange limits set and new reductions but overall much more bearable than UK.

Back home the 'gong' sound on the NAV for a new speed camera warning is literally continuous in some parts of the country.

Having said all that, Cumbria, Northumberland, parts of Wales and Scotland are still great places to drive

I've just come back from Germany.
Multiple autobahn closures following accidents, road closures & diversions for road works time & again.
No better lane discipline than others countries evident, I certainly witnessed better lane discipline in Holland than in Germany.
Plenty of tailgating going on in Germany.
Road surfaces were better than here though.
Also saw plenty of speed cameras of various descriptions, but had no TomTom camera warnings for any of them.

Strange post Von...

My points were that; in Germany there are:
Dramatically fewer speed cameras cf UK (I use PGPSW) - most on a database (but not all).
More sensible speed limits and shorter lengths of reductions around roadworks.
(I saw a barrier repair during an excursion to CZ - looked like accident damage (limit 100 approaching a tunnel)).
Lots of roadworks, agreed - but none of them installing more speed cams or making the road less safe. I think they might have been repairing the surfaces but often adding lanes? (huge works around Berlin doing just that). Somehow these massive works conducted w/o miles and miles of ASC. Traffic flowing well and around the limit without the need for such massive state sponsored monitoring of citizens.

100% certain lane discipline is WAY better than UK. No doubt. They take note of faster traffic, hold back or get in. The selfish UK drivers seem to rejoice in holding everyone up by comparison.

On the downside - The drops to 80km/h from derestricted sections for a flyover/bridge seemed a bit crazy and required quite hard braking to comply with. Simply posting a sign for it further back would help. I also think the reduction is too great and 'over zealous' but hey - compared to UK Motorways they have that 'compromise' you love so much far better balanced.

Country roads in some areas are starting to see blanket 70km/h limits (my slightly out-of-date date Garmin still showed 100 for a lot of them) so I think they too suffer from creeping influence of nanny-state thinking. I still prefer the way it 'feels' to be a driver here compared to home.

[lornemalvo]

I agree about the standard of driving. I drove back from the south coast a couple of weeks ago, the first long journey for a while, and the standard of driving was shocking. I'm not perfect but I'm an ex driving instructor and was also blue light qualified, so better trained than most. I genuinely believe that people drove better when cars were more basic. When your car had a tendency towards brake fade, had crossply tyres , no power steering and less performance the standard of driving was better, because these cars really needed to be driven. the need for anticipation was greater and people took some pride in their driving. Modern cars are much better in almost every way, so drivers feel 100% safe ( a misconception), the cabin is quieter and people drive on autopilot while doing other things. Ironically, the need for anticipation and planning is now even greater given the sheer volume of traffic, the plethora of often bewildering signage, the higher speeds and the absolute certainty that, at some point, someone will do something stupid..I believe texting while driving should carry an automatic 3 month prison sentence, even if there is no accident. That's how serious I think it is.
As for road safety, our Government just reinforce how duplicitous, uncaring, cynical and arrogant they are, and nothing they say (on any subject) has any credibility any more. You can't bleat about road safety while cutting 20,000 police officers. Simples

[Dave Finney]

up_shift said:

stats or studies of mway crashes in proximity to cameras?

Further to the serious crashes, here are the results for PICs (Personal Injury Collisions) from the largest report on speed cameras on British motorways:

a 3% reduction in PICs where average speed cameras were deployed
a 17% increase in PICs where fixed (Gatso) speed cameras were deployed
a 19% reduction in PICs where there was a Police presence

Are either of those answers what you were requesting, up_shift?

[Dave Finney]

This report looks at speeds at camera locations on motorways.

Speeds reduced at the cameras but "before and beyond the cameras the speeds hardly, if at all, reduced".

No collision data though:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/...

[R0G]

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

[ghe13rte]

R0G said:

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

Perhaps you need a “scientific trial” to prove that point!

Then again you could simply be stating the bloody obvious.

The latter option is of course a fact.

[up_shift]

Dave Finney said:

Further to the serious crashes, here are the results for PICs (Personal Injury Collisions) from the largest report on speed cameras on British motorways:

a 3% reduction in PICs where average speed cameras were deployed
a 17% increase in PICs where fixed (Gatso) speed cameras were deployed
a 19% reduction in PICs where there was a Police presence

Are either of those answers what you were requesting, up_shift?

Good find cheers Do you have a link to the report by any chance?

R0G said:

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

"obsession" was probably a bit of an extreme word to use - but to clarify I suppose I was more referring to the disproportionate focus on deploying cameras over other means of road safety (both active and passive). Although I do believe that there's a point at which it becomes counter-productive. I was a bit shocked with just how extensive the rollout of cameras appears to have been so would love to know (statistically and factually) whether it is actually effective, purely a money maker or if it's actually doing any harm.

Edited by up_shift on Sunday 23 September 18:14

[Willy Nilly]

R0G said:

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

The problem is that the speed limits rarely reflect the traffic conditions and are very often reduced on a whim if enough people complain about them. My local facebook group is awash with people complaining about speeding when what they are in fact complaining about is poor driving or in quite a few cases, they are just complaining. One regular complainer was complaining about a car going around a mini roundabout that nearly skidded, so she was complaining about something that didn't actually happen.

There needs to be a line in the sand, but driving is not an exact science. Does one really need to do 40mph on, to pick an example entirely at random, a 2 lane dual carriageway at 08:02 on Christmas morning? Not really would be my opinion. Is 70mph the absolute limit on a motorway in all conditions?

We were supposed to be having the motorway limit increased to 80, but now most of the motorway network appears to be being downgraded to "Smart motorway" with various reduced limits and more enforcement. As an off-peak road user, this is adding considerable time to my journeys. Limits are being reduced due to congestion when no alternative is available. Then we get limits lowered to reduce emissions from diesel engines that the motoring public have been encouraged to buy. But what about those of us that drive petrol cars or electric cars? No matter how hard I drive my car it doesn't give off any diesel emissions, so why has the speed limit been reduced for me?

Sometimes limits get reduced because of noise. My car is quite in any company and besides, it passed all of the EU type-approval tests for bystander noise so why can't I just drive it? If people don't like road noise, living next to a road may not be for them.

There is a fast train line being built and it will likely be the saviour of the earth, but I'd be quite happy going half the speed as the train is allowed to go if you just leave me the fk alone.

The safety argument keeps getting trotted out, but when anyone mentions that speed cameras and lower limits aren't a magic bullet and often don't work or are even counterproductive they just get shouted down by the baying masses of idiots.

[up_shift]

R0G said:

...become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Just playing devil's advocate but - Speaking of the driving test - I was told to check my speed every 5 seconds.

So if that's the metric we're using, let's say it takes 1.5 seconds to look at your speed, interpret it / have your eyes adjust and make corrective actions. Not long at all. But if you extrapolate that into an hour drive, unless my maths is off, which it might be its 3am and I'm jetlagged, that's 13 minutes spent not looking at the road out of every hour..

Not much, but when you think that at 70mph you travel around 0.019 miles per second, then over an hour you would spend 16 miles out of 70 not actually looking at the road or blindspots etc. So over my 5 hour drive, that's 80 miles not actually looking at the road, the distance from London to Portsmouth.

Now while I get that it's not as linear as that, but I recall an advert focusing on the amount of distance traveled when looking at your phone for one second. Now I don't think its ok to use a phone, I lock mine away, but by the same token then should they be encouraging people into a similar situation by sticking up cameras at every opportunity?

I've also seen 3 rear-ends and at least 4 near misses where a car has seen a hidden/discrete speed camera and paniced. (I get that cameras being visible / hidden is possibly another topic albeit closely related) The default answer here is usually ''they shouldn't have been speeding then''. But they weren't. Steady streams of traffic, travelling at the speed limit and it seems that people have suddenly caught view of a hidden camera. At speed, some react by default by braking. Same way if you see any sudden 'hazard'. Next person hits them. Sort of highlights that in many instance the problem isn't in fact speeding itself.

Would also be good to know what other work has been done where speed cameras have been installed - I read stats on a place near my home town in Slough to suggest that some cameras did calm things down - it omitted that warning signs of a concealed entrance had been put up along with some hard traffic calming a half a mile prior - but they atttributed all safety goodness to the presence of the camera..

Edited by up_shift on Sunday 23 September 19:05

[vonhosen]

up_shift said:

Dave Finney said:

Further to the serious crashes, here are the results for PICs (Personal Injury Collisions) from the largest report on speed cameras on British motorways:

a 3% reduction in PICs where average speed cameras were deployed
a 17% increase in PICs where fixed (Gatso) speed cameras were deployed
a 19% reduction in PICs where there was a Police presence

Are either of those answers what you were requesting, up_shift?

Good find cheers Do you have a link to the report by any chance?

R0G said:

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

"obsession" was probably a bit of an extreme word to use - but to clarify I suppose I was more referring to the disproportionate focus on deploying cameras over other means of road safety (both active and passive). Although I do believe that there's a point at which it becomes counter-productive. I was a bit shocked with just how extensive the rollout of cameras appears to have been so would love to know (statistically and factually) whether it is actually effective, purely a money maker or if it's actually doing any harm.

Edited by up_shift on Sunday 23 September 18:14

Effectiveness where cameras are concerned is surely a matter of how effective they are at ensuring
A) That people obey the limit &
B) That they provide reliable evidence of those that didn't obey the limit.

[vonhosen]

up_shift said:

R0G said:

...become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Just playing devil's advocate but - Speaking of the driving test - I was told to check my speed every 5 seconds.

Did you investigate why that was necessary or whether the source telling you that was a reliable source?
I was never told that for my driving test.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 23 September 20:03

[vonhosen]

Willy Nilly said:

R0G said:

speed camera obsession.....

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Perhaps my observations are flawed in some way which I am unable to see using common sense and logic ?

The problem is that the speed limits rarely reflect the traffic conditions [/snip]

They are not supposed to & they could never hope to.
You aren't going to have different limits based on each driver, each vehicle, each weather condition etc etc.
They are only ever meant to be a broad brush setting parameters within which the driver is supposed to driver according to their skill/condition, their vehicle, the weather conditions etc.

[Dave Finney]

up_shift said:

Dave Finney said:

Further to the serious crashes, here are the results for PICs (Personal Injury Collisions) from the largest report on speed cameras on British motorways:

a 3% reduction in PICs where average speed cameras were deployed
a 17% increase in PICs where fixed (Gatso) speed cameras were deployed
a 19% reduction in PICs where there was a Police presence

Are either of those answers what you were requesting, up_shift?

Good find cheers Do you have a link to the report by any chance?

Yes, here: https://trl.co.uk/reports/TRL595

Did you notice earlier the results for FSC (Fatal and Serious Collisions)?

a 10% increase in FSC where average speed cameras were deployed
a 29% increase in FSC where fixed (Gatso) speed cameras were deployed
a 10% reduction in FSC where there was a Police presence

The authors decided not to publish those results, but they did publish the data. That means that we can work out the results for ourselves.
All the required data is in Table 3.18 and 3.19.

[up_shift]

vonhosen said:

Did you investigate why that was necessary or whether the source telling you that was a reliable source?
I was never told that for my driving test.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 23 September 20:03

2 instructors from the largest driving school, and the head examiner locally both said the same, so as a learner trying to pass a test I'd take that as reliable.. Of course it's not a 'rule' but if we're talking about maintaining driving practices at the test.. irrespective of what the 'actual' guideline should or shouldn't be, the principle is the same, more cameras will equal more glances which will equal more time not looking at the road. Add that to a motorcycle situation where the senses are more overloaded and time is more critical and it amplifies the potential.