speed camera obsession

[surveyor_101]

Its policing by revenue creation.

[ghe13rte]

up_shift said:

vonhosen said:

Did you investigate why that was necessary or whether the source telling you that was a reliable source?
I was never told that for my driving test.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 23 September 20:03

2 instructors from the largest driving school, and the head examiner locally both said the same, so as a learner trying to pass a test I'd take that as reliable.. Of course it's not a 'rule' but if we're talking about maintaining driving practices at the test.. irrespective of what the 'actual' guideline should or shouldn't be, the principle is the same, more cameras will equal more glances which will equal more time not looking at the road. Add that to a motorcycle situation where the senses are more overloaded and time is more critical and it amplifies the potential.

No

Poor driving = more glances at the speedometer to maintain speed
Poor awareness and attitude to traffic regulations = more anxiety about where and how much speed enforcement is in place

A determination to drive well and within the regulations well-known to qualified drivers means you need to forget about enforcement completely as it doesn't affect you.

If you have been driving while qualified for more than 1 years and you are still applying rudimentary advice from your driving instructor then you should really be thinking about handing in our licence or taking some form of remedial training.

[ghe13rte]

surveyor_101 said:

Its policing by revenue creation.

All that while the police don't receive the revenue. I can't see any form of governmental direction that would cause a police chief to collect revenues for the treasury. I don't think you can either.

[The Selfish Gene]

ghe13rte said:

No

Poor driving = more glances at the speedometer to maintain speed
Poor awareness and attitude to traffic regulations = more anxiety about where and how much speed enforcement is in place

A determination to drive well and within the regulations well-known to qualified drivers means you need to forget about enforcement completely as it doesn't affect you.

If you have been driving while qualified for more than 1 years and you are still applying rudimentary advice from your driving instructor then you should really be thinking about handing in our licence or taking some form of remedial training.

is this true? So on a motorbike say? As the speed limits are too low (in my opinion) and the performance of the bike is very good.

Example - limehouse tunnel in London with the tax camera on entry, in middle and on exit.

I regularly have to glance at my speedo to ensure I'm not 30+ (as 30 is a ridiculously low limit) and I would prefer to be at the safe speed for the conditions rather than take much longer to get everywhere.

So I have to ensure I have met 29.999 at the appropriate moment and Only for those several feet that it's being assessed - often when filtering when I absolutely should have my eyes on stalks for cars changing lanes, people stopping, even the odd idiot opening a door.

Your argument is going to be, if it's that dangerous I should be going slower - my counter is, even doing 10mph I'd have the same risks, so why not do the speed limit and make progress.

Or we could all walk everywhere.

The not looking at your speedo argument only works if we are all doing the speed limit all of the time, when in the real world everyone ignores them to a greater or lesser extend because they're outdated.

Everyone breaks the limit and reduces their speed for the revenue generator.

[Pip1968]

ghe13rte said:

All that while the police don't receive the revenue. I can't see any form of governmental direction that would cause a police chief to collect revenues for the treasury. I don't think you can either.

He may not be able to but with a minuscule amount of imagination I can:

PC: Minister, we could do with more money for policing
M: Austerity afraid old chap
PC: What about if Govn revenue was increased?
M: We are committed to keeping taxation at current levels. The wealthy already pay a higher proportion of taxable income
PC: What about if we dramatically increase the number of speed cameras?
M: Hmmmm you might have something there. Publicly I could never condone such a move. ................Ever though about entering Government???

Pip

[BertBert]

up_shift said:

2 instructors from the largest driving school, and the head examiner locally both said the same, so as a learner trying to pass a test I'd take that as reliable.. Of course it's not a 'rule' but if we're talking about maintaining driving practices at the test.. irrespective of what the 'actual' guideline should or shouldn't be, the principle is the same, more cameras will equal more glances which will equal more time not looking at the road. Add that to a motorcycle situation where the senses are more overloaded and time is more critical and it amplifies the potential.

What on earth do you mean 'reliable' ? I assume you aren't a learner and have done enough driving to be able to keep to a speed with enough accuracy not to get a ticket? It's really rather easy and not at all distracting. I reckon it takes at most 1/10th of a second to look at the speedo.

Don't get me wrong, I only have a fleeting regard for speed limits, but at least I accept that and don't say palpably daft things about how hard it is to keep to the limit. I presume you've certainly got no time to look in all your mirrors? And as for shoulder checking before you change lane, heaven forbid
Bert

[The Selfish Gene]

the point is - life saver is just that, and it's important.

being forced to glance at your speedo due to dangerous tax cameras are the problem.

They're an unnecessary pain in the arse - and made more dangerous on a motorbike.

granted we could all go around at 28 mph all the time - but life isn't like that.

[Graveworm]

The Selfish Gene said:

the point is - life saver is just that, and it's important.

being forced to glance at your speedo due to dangerous tax cameras are the problem.

They're an unnecessary pain in the arse - and made more dangerous on a motorbike.

granted we could all go around at 28 mph all the time - but life isn't like that.

OK as anyone can tell I am not a fan of the current speed limits and over emphasis of their enforcement. But equally I know how fast I am travelling without having to look at the speedo. But even if I didn't then heads up displays and audible warnings (For cars and bikes) exist which amongst other things can tell you if you are exceeding the limit or indeed the average speed where it applies. So I can't accept that this is a real issue for anyone who should be driving.

[Graveworm]

The Selfish Gene said:

is this true?

O

Everyone breaks the limit and reduces their speed for the revenue generator.

They dont produce much net revenue for the government in the big scheme of things. They have costs, and the process needs to be administered. Add in that the fines would probably have gone into the economy anyway the government, without doing anything would probably have got the same amount, in the long run, without having to do anything.

I think "They" genuinely think it is for the greater good, I just think they are wrong. The problem is, any roll back will be used a stick to beat them with everytime there is any uptick in serious accidents or a motorway pile up - so doing nothing is politically safest .

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 24th September 19:06

[ghe13rte]

Graveworm said:

The Selfish Gene said:

the point is - life saver is just that, and it's important.

being forced to glance at your speedo due to dangerous tax cameras are the problem.

They're an unnecessary pain in the arse - and made more dangerous on a motorbike.

granted we could all go around at 28 mph all the time - but life isn't like that.

OK as anyone can tell I am not a fan of the current speed limits and over emphasis of their enforcement. But equally I know how fast I am travelling without having to look at the speedo. But even if I didn't then heads up displays and audible warnings (For cars and bikes) exist which amongst other things can tell you if you are exceeding the limit or indeed the average speed where it applies. So I can't accept that this is a real issue for anyone who should be driving.

Egg-fu**-in'-zacktly!

Graveworm said:

The Selfish Gene said:

is this true?

O

Everyone breaks the limit and reduces their speed for the revenue generator.

They dont produce much net revenue for the government in the big scheme of things. They have costs, and the process needs to be administered. Add in that the fines would probably have gone into the economy anyway the government, without doing anything would probably have got the same amount, in the long run, without having to do anything.

I think "They" genuinely think it is for the greater good, I just think they are wrong. The problem is, any roll back will be used a stick to beat them with everytime there is any uptick in serious accidents or a motorway pile up - so doing nothing is politically safest .

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 24th September 19:06

I could set up a scheme that increases the revenue 1000-fold, easily. I think most people who post here could do that too. Now why don't the police and government do that if there was a revenue interest?

[V8 Fettler]

Davidonly said:

vonhosen said:

Davidonly said:

Driving around Germany on a grand tour just now. Hardly a scam anywhere to be seen, including on POI via sat nav. Only seen them in 50 km/h and 30 km/h areas in Dresden.

Its' a joy compared to driving at home. Not a SINGLE ASC so far Lots of roadworks mind you. Oh and plenty of limit free Autobahn including brand new stretches. Must have leaned how to build a new road without 'accident blackspots' installed from day 1 here...

Mostly excellent lane discipline, although some tailgating here and there. Cruise at 110 -120 mph for ages on some bits. Its like actually travelling somewhere.

I always feel my faith in logic and engineering restored for a while by my regular visits to this country. Bavaria is my fave part (so far) although really liked Wismar earlier in the trip.

I also love the way road work speed limits end with virtually the last traffic cone rather than a mile later with everyone fuming under the ASC threat for absolutely no reason.

There are some strange limits set and new reductions but overall much more bearable than UK.

Back home the 'gong' sound on the NAV for a new speed camera warning is literally continuous in some parts of the country.

Having said all that, Cumbria, Northumberland, parts of Wales and Scotland are still great places to drive

I've just come back from Germany.
Multiple autobahn closures following accidents, road closures & diversions for road works time & again.
No better lane discipline than others countries evident, I certainly witnessed better lane discipline in Holland than in Germany.
Plenty of tailgating going on in Germany.
Road surfaces were better than here though.
Also saw plenty of speed cameras of various descriptions, but had no TomTom camera warnings for any of them.

Strange post Von...

My points were that; in Germany there are:
Dramatically fewer speed cameras cf UK (I use PGPSW) - most on a database (but not all).
More sensible speed limits and shorter lengths of reductions around roadworks.
(I saw a barrier repair during an excursion to CZ - looked like accident damage (limit 100 approaching a tunnel)).
Lots of roadworks, agreed - but none of them installing more speed cams or making the road less safe. I think they might have been repairing the surfaces but often adding lanes? (huge works around Berlin doing just that). Somehow these massive works conducted w/o miles and miles of ASC. Traffic flowing well and around the limit without the need for such massive state sponsored monitoring of citizens.

100% certain lane discipline is WAY better than UK. No doubt. They take note of faster traffic, hold back or get in. The selfish UK drivers seem to rejoice in holding everyone up by comparison.

On the downside - The drops to 80km/h from derestricted sections for a flyover/bridge seemed a bit crazy and required quite hard braking to comply with. Simply posting a sign for it further back would help. I also think the reduction is too great and 'over zealous' but hey - compared to UK Motorways they have that 'compromise' you love so much far better balanced.

Country roads in some areas are starting to see blanket 70km/h limits (my slightly out-of-date date Garmin still showed 100 for a lot of them) so I think they too suffer from creeping influence of nanny-state thinking. I still prefer the way it 'feels' to be a driver here compared to home.

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

[TooMany2cvs]

V8 Fettler said:

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

Yet 40% more people died on their roads last year than in the UK.

[Crackie]

TooMany2cvs said:

V8 Fettler said:

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

Yet 40% more people died on their roads last year than in the UK.

Hardly surprising given Germany's larger population and that they have more ' available' vehicles on their roads; > 61% more.

[gothatway]

Crackie said:

Hardly surprising given Germany's larger population and that they have more ' available' vehicles on their roads; > 61% more.

See here to see that the UK was better than Germany in every respect.

[Graveworm]

Crackie said:

Hardly surprising given Germany's larger population and that they have more ' available' vehicles on their roads; > 61% more.

The UK is safer per 100,000 cars, per 100,000 people and the most relevant metric per Billion km. driven. For the last figure only Sweden is slightly safer than us in the world 3.5 vs 3.6 (Germany is 4.9). However what is worrying people is that, recently, we have not been improving at the same rate as other countries.

[up_shift]

BertBert said:

What on earth do you mean 'reliable' ? I assume you aren't a learner and have done enough driving to be able to keep to a speed with enough accuracy not to get a ticket? It's really rather easy and not at all distracting. I reckon it takes at most 1/10th of a second to look at the speedo.

Don't get me wrong, I only have a fleeting regard for speed limits, but at least I accept that and don't say palpably daft things about how hard it is to keep to the limit. I presume you've certainly got no time to look in all your mirrors? And as for shoulder checking before you change lane, heaven forbid
Bert

that's kind of the point thoug - time looking down is time not looking at the mirrors and blindspots Like I say, only playing devil's advocate, we can argue until the cows come home on how much it actually takes your attention away (again - hence the quest for some hard figures etc) , but if theres a reason for steering wheel controls and conveniences to stop you looking down, you have to wonder if it's risky encouraging the same action more regularly (even if split seconds, I guarantee that on a motorbike or even a car with a speedo in the centre of dash it will cause more eye fatigue and take longer to check than on cars with a HUD) but:

ghe13rte said:

No

Poor driving = more glances at the speedometer to maintain speed
Poor awareness and attitude to traffic regulations = more anxiety about where and how much speed enforcement is in place

A determination to drive well and within the regulations well-known to qualified drivers means you need to forget about enforcement completely as it doesn't affect you.

If you have been driving while qualified for more than 1 years and you are still applying rudimentary advice from your driving instructor then you should really be thinking about handing in our licence or taking some form of remedial training.

Well hold on a minute, let's not take this out of context. it was addressing the point that:

said:

The only people I can see with such see be the drivers who for some reason have become unable to stick within the limits which they demonstrated they could do when they passed e driving test

Hence why it was basing it on metrics taught whilst learning.

Do I check my speedo as often as that? probably not and I won't go into 'my speedo checks are faster than yours' but It is a simple fact that more cameras = more checking of speedos, regardless of how much you check in between.

More glances doesn't mean poor driving, nor does poor awareness mean more anxiety. Many people have anxiety about cameras because their licences are important.. I don't care how advanced a driver you are, you simply don't know if your speed has crept up a mph or two due to a sight incline without checking on your speedo. Cameras that catch you out when such has happened mean extra vigilance.

Graveworm said:

But equally I know how fast I am travelling without having to look at the speedo. But even if I didn't then heads up displays and audible warnings (For cars and bikes) exist which amongst other things can tell you if you are exceeding the limit or indeed the average speed where it applies. So I can't accept that this is a real issue for anyone who should be driving.

Agree - to a degree, I know how fast I am travelling, but do I want to risk a ticket on a gut feeling as opposed to knowing for sure? not really. None of my cars or bikes bar one tell me if I've exceeded a speed limit, and even then that function isn't going to get set at every change in speed limit

gothatway said:

See here to see that the UK was better than Germany in every respect.

Good find, I'd wonder if theres the same information in more detail, i.e. what the nature of the biggest accidents where, are they owing to the fact that the country has more mways, more fatigue etc or if it is a simple case of where the speed is higher more people die

Edited by up_shift on Monday 24th September 22:04

[Graveworm]

up_shift said:

Agree - to a degree, I know how fast I am travelling, but do I want to risk a ticket on a gut feeling as opposed to knowing for sure? not really. None of my cars or bikes bar one tell me if I've exceeded a speed limit, and even then that function isn't going to get set at every change in speed limit

Mine and even my phone can do exactly that - with the exception of variable speed limits only one reads the signs and tells me that.

[jm doc]

TooMany2cvs said:

V8 Fettler said:

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

Yet 40% more people died on their roads last year than in the UK.

Here we go again with this crap. German roads are criss-crossed daily by tens of thousands of foreign drivers, having as it does a common border with nine different countries, all of whom, bar one have significantly higher death rates on their roads. So despite this and despite having massively higher speed limits on large sections of their fastest roads than every other country, they are actually the second safest amongst all their neighbours on continental Europe.

In any debate about speed limits, particularly on motorways, this provides an incontrovertible mass of evidence accumulated over decades demonstrating that speed is not a significant factor but this is routinely dismissed by muppets making spurious and irrational comments such as this.

[Davidonly]

jm doc said:

TooMany2cvs said:

V8 Fettler said:

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

Yet 40% more people died on their roads last year than in the UK.

Here we go again with this crap. German roads are criss-crossed daily by tens of thousands of foreign drivers, having as it does a common border with nine different countries, all of whom, bar one have significantly higher death rates on their roads. So despite this and despite having massively higher speed limits on large sections of their fastest roads than every other country, they are actually the second safest amongst all their neighbours on continental Europe.

In any debate about speed limits, particularly on motorways, this provides an incontrovertible mass of evidence accumulated over decades demonstrating that speed is not a significant factor but this is routinely dismissed by muppets making spurious and irrational comments such as this.

yup

[TooMany2cvs]

Crackie said:

TooMany2cvs said:

V8 Fettler said:

The Germans have invested a lot more in their roads than we have over the decades.

Yet 40% more people died on their roads last year than in the UK.

Hardly surprising given Germany's larger population and that they have more ' available' vehicles on their roads; > 61% more.

That's per million population.