£80000 for civil rape conviction
Discussion
MB140 said:
Sorry I didn’t explain myself so well. What I meant.
I’m not sure how I feel about someone who is cleared in a criminal case ( not getting in to an argument of not proven so he isn’t innocent. I’ve expressed my opinion already) but is then dragged in to a civil court (as I understand has a lower burden of proof) to have a second bite of the cherry so to speak along with a chance of financial gain for something that has already been proven not guilty.
He wasn't proven not guilty. The case against him was not proven. Big difference. I’m not sure how I feel about someone who is cleared in a criminal case ( not getting in to an argument of not proven so he isn’t innocent. I’ve expressed my opinion already) but is then dragged in to a civil court (as I understand has a lower burden of proof) to have a second bite of the cherry so to speak along with a chance of financial gain for something that has already been proven not guilty.
MB140 said:
I don’t want to downplay rape it’s a serious offence and I feel truly sorry for the victims but it seems the burden of consent is getting ridiculous. Soon you will need a signed contract before you buy a lady a drink to prove she is sober and consents.
No you won't. It's actually remarkably simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDhKM8qWWBM
its remarkably simple until you meet the vindictive/mental/spot a shot at the money type. Which was the point I took it he was making
I meet people who make s
t up every day, why they do it I have no idea, but the concept that people stop making st up once they reach adulthood seems increasingly flawed
I meet people who make s
t up every day, why they do it I have no idea, but the concept that people stop making st up once they reach adulthood seems increasingly flawedTwigtheWonderkid said:
MB140 said:
I don’t want to downplay rape it’s a serious offence and I feel truly sorry for the victims but it seems the burden of consent is getting ridiculous. Soon you will need a signed contract before you buy a lady a drink to prove she is sober and consents.
No you won't. It's actually remarkably simple.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDhKM8qWWBM
The point of the contract referred to jokingly? above is to protect the parties from one claiming later that there was no consent.
markiii said:
In a civil case?
Naming in the civil case would involve revealing the criminal allegation which is what can't happen. As for the overall item it's a non story. You are guilty if you did it. However you are not guilty, in criminal court, if there is a reasonable doubt Even if the Jury think you are guilty they should acquit unless they are certain. This was a civil court and there it is balance of probabilities.
Being found not guilty isn't definitive evidence of innocence. q.v. the David Beckham thread, OJ and the Daily Mail accusing Stephen Lawrence's murderers. It would be ludicrous if it were the case. Otherwise, everyone accused of a crime and found not guilty would automatically be able to successfully sue their accuser.
Edited by Graveworm on Saturday 6th October 11:20
La Liga said:
xjay1337 said:
So hang on, bloke can be named and thus ruined but the woman is not named for legal reasons?
Nothing to do with gender. The victim of a sexual offence is automatically granted anonymity.
MB140 said:
Sorry I didn’t explain myself so well. What I meant.
I’m not sure how I feel about someone who is cleared in a criminal case ( not getting in to an argument of not proven so he isn’t innocent. I’ve expressed my opinion already) but is then dragged in to a civil court (as I understand has a lower burden of proof) to have a second bite of the cherry so to speak along with a chance of financial gain for something that has already been proven not guilty.
I hope he appeals because.
She took him home, she followed him out the club he was ejected from. He wasn’t found guilty in a criminal court.
ETA, I don’t want to downplay rape it’s a serious offence and I feel truly sorry for the victims but it seems the burden of consent is getting ridiculous. Soon you will need a signed contract before you buy a lady a drink to prove she is sober and consents.
Having seen the consequences of a vindictive woman falsely accusing my stepdad I am very wary of false allegations nowadays. As posted earlier by someone else. She drank a st load of alcohol, supposedly can’t remember leaving the club, can’t remember how she got to her home. But can remember and can be seen as believeable in a civil case. It just doesn’t add up. Also as said previously. Was he just as stfaced as her.
My step dads case:
1) My stepdad and his wife separated 20 years ago. They divorce she takes the cash he keeps the house. She disappears abroad and left my stepdad to raise their son.
2) He meets my mum 10 years ago and he moves from Crew down to Nottingham, his son wants to stay in crew as he has a job so he stays in my stepdads house free of charge.
3) Toyboy lover in Portugal turfs stepdads exwife out on her ass (she’s been playing around), so being penniless and homeless contacts her son who agrees for her to move in with him (my stepdads house).
4) Stepdad doesn’t mind as the son is stil living there free of charge but then son meets a girl and he gets offered a job down south so moves out.
5) stepdads Ex wife now deciders it’s her house, she was never compensated properly in the divorce and she’s not moving any ware.
6) 4 year legal battle ensues to the point a judge gives her 10% and must be out the house in x months after it’s sold (think it was 3 months). To which she agrees. 6 months later she isn’t going anywhere refuses to let estate agents in to the house (she’s living there rent free). Cue more legal ranglings until a judge has enough and gives her a definite date to vacate and as a kicker tells her that a market rate of rent will be deducted from her 10% for each month she is living there.
7) Three hours after the judgement she is in a police station accusing my stepdad of raping her some 30 years previously (remember back then you couldn’t rape your wife)
8) 2 years later. Multiple visits to the police ( whom my stepdad says from day one had decided he was guilty were nasty evil little vindictive bds (one even said while escorting him to the toilet once that he was sure he would get sent down and get raped inside himself). Multiple interviews £20k in legal bills his court date was here.
9) Opening day the judge ask my stepdads barrister if he was ready to start. “No I haven’t had the following bits of evidence disclosed from the cps”. More legal wrangling and cps are told to find the evidence before lunchtime. One being her medicle records.
(Remember the national news scandal early this year about certain cps cases with the cps withholding evidence, my stepdads case is one of the cases being reviewed as to why the cps had the evidence all along but never disclosed it)
10) Surprise surprise cps have all the stuff in a box they just happens to find down stairs. “Sorry judge”. Court proceedings delayed for 24 hours to allow barrister to read documents.
11) My stepdads barrister points out that from her medical records (she was diagnosed with mental health issues way before they divorced) that at the time of the alleged rape the ex wife was infact in a government mental health facility and drugged up to her eyeballs on all sorts of antipsychotic medications and had been for nearly theee months.
12) Case is thrown out, judge gives cps a right earful and apologised to my stepdad.
It was quite clearly from the start a vindictive evil woman trying to get one over because she lost the case over the house (to which she was still living in at the point of the rape trial).
So what’s been the effect of this 3 year ordeal.
My stepdad is now on medication for anxiety and depression. He went from being a very bubbly outgoing person to a virtual recluse scared of his own shadow. He now virtually won’t talk to another woman without someone else present for fear of what the think of him or being accused of anything else.
It’s clearly taken a toll on my mother as well. Who has stood by him. It nearly bankrupted them and has forced them to remortgage the house to cover the legal costs.
He has lost all contact with his son who believed his mother.
Around 9 months ago she was finally dragged kicking screaming and biting the bailiffs as they removed her from the house. It sold a couple of months ago. Basically she never got a penny because of the rent deductions. Infact she owes him money for rent which he can’t be bothered to go after. My mother on the other hand is livid and wants revenge.
To top it off she had virtually destroyed the inside of the home. Holes in walls you name it. Cost about £10k to get it back to standard and my stepdad and dad (best friends and in their retirement) went and did a lot of the work.
So am I careful and suspicious when I hear someone accused of rape. You bet I am. I have sympathy for the genuine victims. It’s an abhorrent crime not normally about the sex but the control and fear. But I am also rueful about someone who is drinking to excess, takes someone home gets into bed with them (all willingly) and then in effect I changes thier mind in the morning.
I’m sorry but it is practically impossible to prove what went on once two consenting adults are in bed together it’s a pure he said she said situation and you are in effect ending someone’s life with a rape conviction with no evidence other than someone’s word who was happy to get themselves in to bed in the first place.
In the case of the bbc article posted in the op I just don’t see enough evidence to support the outcome.
Anyways sorry for the rant. It’s an emotive subject and one I have seen the false accusation side of first hand.
Terrible thing to happen to your family fully understand you concern. Mine is similar in this case because he went before a jury and found it not proven. Now to most people that is innocent but the pedantics would say it says no such thing.I’m not sure how I feel about someone who is cleared in a criminal case ( not getting in to an argument of not proven so he isn’t innocent. I’ve expressed my opinion already) but is then dragged in to a civil court (as I understand has a lower burden of proof) to have a second bite of the cherry so to speak along with a chance of financial gain for something that has already been proven not guilty.
I hope he appeals because.
She took him home, she followed him out the club he was ejected from. He wasn’t found guilty in a criminal court.
ETA, I don’t want to downplay rape it’s a serious offence and I feel truly sorry for the victims but it seems the burden of consent is getting ridiculous. Soon you will need a signed contract before you buy a lady a drink to prove she is sober and consents.
Having seen the consequences of a vindictive woman falsely accusing my stepdad I am very wary of false allegations nowadays. As posted earlier by someone else. She drank a s
t load of alcohol, supposedly can’t remember leaving the club, can’t remember how she got to her home. But can remember and can be seen as believeable in a civil case. It just doesn’t add up. Also as said previously. Was he just as stfaced as her. My step dads case:
1) My stepdad and his wife separated 20 years ago. They divorce she takes the cash he keeps the house. She disappears abroad and left my stepdad to raise their son.
2) He meets my mum 10 years ago and he moves from Crew down to Nottingham, his son wants to stay in crew as he has a job so he stays in my stepdads house free of charge.
3) Toyboy lover in Portugal turfs stepdads exwife out on her ass (she’s been playing around), so being penniless and homeless contacts her son who agrees for her to move in with him (my stepdads house).
4) Stepdad doesn’t mind as the son is stil living there free of charge but then son meets a girl and he gets offered a job down south so moves out.
5) stepdads Ex wife now deciders it’s her house, she was never compensated properly in the divorce and she’s not moving any ware.
6) 4 year legal battle ensues to the point a judge gives her 10% and must be out the house in x months after it’s sold (think it was 3 months). To which she agrees. 6 months later she isn’t going anywhere refuses to let estate agents in to the house (she’s living there rent free). Cue more legal ranglings until a judge has enough and gives her a definite date to vacate and as a kicker tells her that a market rate of rent will be deducted from her 10% for each month she is living there.
7) Three hours after the judgement she is in a police station accusing my stepdad of raping her some 30 years previously (remember back then you couldn’t rape your wife)
8) 2 years later. Multiple visits to the police ( whom my stepdad says from day one had decided he was guilty were nasty evil little vindictive b
ds (one even said while escorting him to the toilet once that he was sure he would get sent down and get raped inside himself). Multiple interviews £20k in legal bills his court date was here. 9) Opening day the judge ask my stepdads barrister if he was ready to start. “No I haven’t had the following bits of evidence disclosed from the cps”. More legal wrangling and cps are told to find the evidence before lunchtime. One being her medicle records.
(Remember the national news scandal early this year about certain cps cases with the cps withholding evidence, my stepdads case is one of the cases being reviewed as to why the cps had the evidence all along but never disclosed it)
10) Surprise surprise cps have all the stuff in a box they just happens to find down stairs. “Sorry judge”. Court proceedings delayed for 24 hours to allow barrister to read documents.
11) My stepdads barrister points out that from her medical records (she was diagnosed with mental health issues way before they divorced) that at the time of the alleged rape the ex wife was infact in a government mental health facility and drugged up to her eyeballs on all sorts of antipsychotic medications and had been for nearly theee months.
12) Case is thrown out, judge gives cps a right earful and apologised to my stepdad.
It was quite clearly from the start a vindictive evil woman trying to get one over because she lost the case over the house (to which she was still living in at the point of the rape trial).
So what’s been the effect of this 3 year ordeal.
My stepdad is now on medication for anxiety and depression. He went from being a very bubbly outgoing person to a virtual recluse scared of his own shadow. He now virtually won’t talk to another woman without someone else present for fear of what the think of him or being accused of anything else.
It’s clearly taken a toll on my mother as well. Who has stood by him. It nearly bankrupted them and has forced them to remortgage the house to cover the legal costs.
He has lost all contact with his son who believed his mother.
Around 9 months ago she was finally dragged kicking screaming and biting the bailiffs as they removed her from the house. It sold a couple of months ago. Basically she never got a penny because of the rent deductions. Infact she owes him money for rent which he can’t be bothered to go after. My mother on the other hand is livid and wants revenge.
To top it off she had virtually destroyed the inside of the home. Holes in walls you name it. Cost about £10k to get it back to standard and my stepdad and dad (best friends and in their retirement) went and did a lot of the work.
So am I careful and suspicious when I hear someone accused of rape. You bet I am. I have sympathy for the genuine victims. It’s an abhorrent crime not normally about the sex but the control and fear. But I am also rueful about someone who is drinking to excess, takes someone home gets into bed with them (all willingly) and then in effect I changes thier mind in the morning.
I’m sorry but it is practically impossible to prove what went on once two consenting adults are in bed together it’s a pure he said she said situation and you are in effect ending someone’s life with a rape conviction with no evidence other than someone’s word who was happy to get themselves in to bed in the first place.
In the case of the bbc article posted in the op I just don’t see enough evidence to support the outcome.
Anyways sorry for the rant. It’s an emotive subject and one I have seen the false accusation side of first hand.
Edited by MB140 on Saturday 6th October 08:02
So she goes back to civil court where one person decides. The Sheriff said she gave emotional and compelling testimony and he thought she was telling the truth. So why bother with a jury at all, why not just have all cases heard by one person who decides.
If it was my son and I believed him I would want to appeal, who knows what happened on that night but two lives were changed forever.
Jagmanv12 said:
La Liga said:
xjay1337 said:
So hang on, bloke can be named and thus ruined but the woman is not named for legal reasons?
Nothing to do with gender. The victim of a sexual offence is automatically granted anonymity.
That's what I suspected, I just wanted to make sure because it's such a bizarre thing to drop in, because there was no offense of raping your wife the idea you could violently force yourself onto your wife if you wanted somehow excuses the act.
Edited by Oakey on Saturday 6th October 12:47
Jagmanv12 said:
La Liga said:
xjay1337 said:
So hang on, bloke can be named and thus ruined but the woman is not named for legal reasons?
Nothing to do with gender. The victim of a sexual offence is automatically granted anonymity.
king happen does it. singlecoil said:
The link to the joke website makes your position on this subject unclear.
It was meant to demonstrate that it's not easy for women to come out and accuse people of raping them because of the ridicule and scrutiny they become liable to i.e. it's a pretty big decision. And it's definitely not the case that an accusation results in the accused automatically being assumed guilty.xjay1337 said:
Jagmanv12 said:
La Liga said:
xjay1337 said:
So hang on, bloke can be named and thus ruined but the woman is not named for legal reasons?
Nothing to do with gender. The victim of a sexual offence is automatically granted anonymity.
king happen does it. John Worboys, the Black Cab Rapist, is a case in point. It's highly debatable if he would have been convicted with the testimony of a single victim, but with multiple victims he was banged to rights
MB140 said:
PorkInsider said:
MB140 said:
Seems dodgy to me getting paid by a civil court for something already found not guilty in a criminal court.
He wasn’t found ‘not guilty’.Guilt is binary. You are either guilty or not guilty. Not proven is a load of b
ks. Proven = Guilty
Not proven = Not guilty
Arrrrrrh
It was quite frustrating actually as it felt pretty obvious that a couple of direct questions relating to a couple of very specific points would have instantly cleared up the matter, but neither the prosection or defence asked those questions.
Countdown said:
singlecoil said:
The link to the joke website makes your position on this subject unclear.
It was meant to demonstrate that it's not easy for women to come out and accuse people of raping them because of the ridicule and scrutiny they become liable to i.e. it's a pretty big decision. And it's definitely not the case that an accusation results in the accused automatically being assumed guilty.La Liga said:
That's the downside of not naming suspects / the accused.
Maybe let the Judge decide if an accused's name should be released -presumably the CPS can apply and show that there might be a good reason for release,eg in a random park attack, but less likely on an accusation after a drunk one night stand.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff